Finish problem
Finish problem
Hi Guys,
I wonder if I could get some advice. I was pulling the masking tape off the fretboard on the guitar I am building and have got some chip out in the finish. I scraped the edges with a razor blade first but I wasn't being careful enough and didn't realise how much finish was on this area. I was considering re-masking that area and trying to drop fill behind the finish that has lifted. I would love to hear your thoughts on how to fix this. The other side came off clearly. go figure.
EDIT: I forgot to add, it is mirotone high gloss lacquer.
I wonder if I could get some advice. I was pulling the masking tape off the fretboard on the guitar I am building and have got some chip out in the finish. I scraped the edges with a razor blade first but I wasn't being careful enough and didn't realise how much finish was on this area. I was considering re-masking that area and trying to drop fill behind the finish that has lifted. I would love to hear your thoughts on how to fix this. The other side came off clearly. go figure.
EDIT: I forgot to add, it is mirotone high gloss lacquer.
Jeremy D
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Re: Finish problem
Is it a rosewood fingerboard? My immediate thought is that because rosewood is "oily" it is wise to clean it with acetone prior to glueing and finishing. There may be some glue from the fret installation if you glued the frets in. This may be the reason for the problem in the first place. I don't have a lot of experience with finishes other than nitro and shellac, which are relatively easy to repair. If it is in fact rosewood or other similar timber, I would tend to clean with acetone first, whatever you do, but test the acetone on the finish first to see if it reacts. Even better, ask the guys on this forum!
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"
Re: Finish problem
Hi Alex,
No its mac ebony. I don't think it is adhesion problems, just my own stupidity (and inexperience). I have been reading up on frets.com and a few other places and i think I will try and do some drop fill sessions with a fine paint brush after re-masking that area of the fretboard. Hopefully someone with experience will chime in.
No its mac ebony. I don't think it is adhesion problems, just my own stupidity (and inexperience). I have been reading up on frets.com and a few other places and i think I will try and do some drop fill sessions with a fine paint brush after re-masking that area of the fretboard. Hopefully someone with experience will chime in.
Jeremy D
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Re: Finish problem
we should, as luthiers, not make assumptions...everyone assumes my name is Alex. I'd wait until a few more have offered suggestions...try asking the finish manufacturer for advice. It still looks to me like it is an adhesion problem of some sort.
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"
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Onlinekiwigeo
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Re: Finish problem
Time to stick your real monicker down the bottom of your posts like I doblackalex1952 wrote:we should, as luthiers, not make assumptions...everyone assumes my name is Alex. I'd wait until a few more have offered suggestions...try asking the finish manufacturer for advice. It still looks to me like it is an adhesion problem of some sort.
Martin
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Re: Finish problem
No worries! Roscoe!
But Martin! WHAT'S YOUR OPINION RE THE FINISH ISSUE?
But Martin! WHAT'S YOUR OPINION RE THE FINISH ISSUE?
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"
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Onlinekiwigeo
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Re: Finish problem
Dunno.....I don't use spray on finishes, all my instruments get French Polished.blackalex1952 wrote:No worries! Roscoe!
But Martin! WHAT'S YOUR OPINION RE THE FINISH ISSUE?
Martin
Re: Finish problem
To me, that simply looks like what mirotone looks like when it chips, which unfortunately happens quite easily.
When I use Auto 2k I can smash a drill bit into it wrecklessly and it's hard enough that it's still perfect, mirotone you only have to look at it sideways and this will happen.
To answer your fix question, I actually did this a couple of days ago for an invisible fix with epoxy where the mirotone chipped out WAY worse than in your photo.
Just fill the bits with epoxy, block it back, polish it out and remember how you did it so it doesn't happen again!
When I use Auto 2k I can smash a drill bit into it wrecklessly and it's hard enough that it's still perfect, mirotone you only have to look at it sideways and this will happen.
To answer your fix question, I actually did this a couple of days ago for an invisible fix with epoxy where the mirotone chipped out WAY worse than in your photo.
Just fill the bits with epoxy, block it back, polish it out and remember how you did it so it doesn't happen again!
Re: Finish problem
Thanks heaps for the reply Alan, good to know a fix is possible. What type of epoxy did you use? Did you thin it at all? I have some boatcote I use for pore filling and I have their thinning agent. Thinking that might work well to get down in under the chipping.demonx wrote:To me, that simply looks like what mirotone looks like when it chips, which unfortunately happens quite easily.
When I use Auto 2k I can smash a drill bit into it wrecklessly and it's hard enough that it's still perfect, mirotone you only have to look at it sideways and this will happen.
To answer your fix question, I actually did this a couple of days ago for an invisible fix with epoxy where the mirotone chipped out WAY worse than in your photo.
Just fill the bits with epoxy, block it back, polish it out and remember how you did it so it doesn't happen again!
Jeremy D
Re: Finish problem
I usually just mask the fret board out of the equation spray up to it then it will blend in easy ,fret board is hard so it will have a nice sheen anyway
John.
John.
John ,of way too many things to do.
- Nick
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Re: Finish problem
I've had this happen a couple of times too and my fix is to wick in some thin superglue under the chips that have lifted using a tiny amount of glue on the tip of a toothpick, let it cure then re do the buff out steps from the 600 grit level to re-level the surface. Any 'stray' glue that may have found it's way onto the face of the fingerboard can be scraped and sanded off.
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.
Re: Finish problem
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the reply. I think that is the strategy that I am going to go with after speaking to a few other people. I had another look at it last night and it is nowhere near as bad as it looks in the photo.
Thanks for the reply. I think that is the strategy that I am going to go with after speaking to a few other people. I had another look at it last night and it is nowhere near as bad as it looks in the photo.
Jeremy D
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Re: Finish problem
the advice on stabilising the edges with CA is good. if you get lacquer on the fingerboard it usually will scrape off with a razor
I usually leave some lacquer pooled on a waxy bit of paper and once it goes off you have a thickish chunk of it. It can be lifted off and sliced into small pieces that can be sat where the lacquer is chipped. add a little thinners from a flattened out toothpick very carefully and it'll sink into the depression. Once that goes off you can scrape it down with a razor blade, sand and polish.
you'll grow old trying to drop fill that hole
I usually leave some lacquer pooled on a waxy bit of paper and once it goes off you have a thickish chunk of it. It can be lifted off and sliced into small pieces that can be sat where the lacquer is chipped. add a little thinners from a flattened out toothpick very carefully and it'll sink into the depression. Once that goes off you can scrape it down with a razor blade, sand and polish.
you'll grow old trying to drop fill that hole
Re: Finish problem
I used Z-Poxy, but only because I've got plenty of it here that I'm using up. Botecoat should do the same job. I'll be buying Botecoat after the Z-Poxy to try it out.Jeremy D wrote:
Thanks heaps for the reply Alan, good to know a fix is possible. What type of epoxy did you use? Did you thin it at all? I have some boatcote I use for pore filling and I have their thinning agent. Thinking that might work well to get down in under the chipping.
The real thing is just trying to minimize it happening in the first place, maybe if it's something that happens to you more than once remove the tape while the paint it still tacky and before it cures, then it won't do this. There are a few jobs where I do this myself as the point goes over the tape edge and then when you peel back the tape you're lifting more than what you intended to. Lifting the tape while it's tacky (not wet, but not cured, tacky) lets you pull the tape pull up without wrecking the edge, just dont drag it across the painted part! Also, always peel the tape over itself. Don't lift it straight up, pull it back so the smooth side is close to the opposite smooth side and the sticky part facing up making a V shape.
I've had it happen where the mirotone has built up, then I've drilled through it and then put a screw into the hole and the mirotone cracked with the screw pressure. I've also had it happen when I've re drilled out tuner holes of a guitar with mirotone. On the poly 2k products I've used it's never been an issue, the mirotone just chipped away and I'm talking 1cm long chips! Luckily it was under where the tuners were to mount in and I was able to fill with epoxy, block back and polish and wonderfully it turned out invisible. I did it and I cannot even see where it happened.
These days I over drill the tuner holes ever so slightly so I don't have to clear them out. But not enough that they are sloppy either. I can't tell you the drill bit size, it's an offset I've programmed on the CNC and I cannot recall it off the top of my head.
Re: Finish problem
Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm for a nice finish but please consider the following.
Having used a certain lacquer for nearly 30 yrs I believe these no longer have a place in the modern workshop. You are playing with iso-cyanates. The only recommended use is with filtered air pumped in from a clean atmosphere. Hardly any amateurs can afford this set up. The consequences of not doing this can be lethal - I know because I have just had the 12 month all clear from BLADDER CANCER - I always expected lung or throat cancer. Both my surgeon & I are of the opinion these chemicals will be the modern day asbestos.
Apart from that in 10 - 15 yrs they crack as their expansion co-efficient is different to that of the wood they are applied to. Actually the briefest life span of most finishes. If you are going to build something of a quality that might one day be restored then all materials used should be restorable.
So what alternative?
Naturally I was forced to look for one. As an antique restorer I know shellac can last 100 yrs or more & pure tung oil is also very good - but each has durability problems & the need for frequent maintenance.
I have waited many years for water-based finishes to reach a high standard & was pleasantly surprised by a visit to Resene. I have used their aqua clear on several dining tables & other furn with great results. Found it to be quite scratch & water & heat resistant.
The choice is yours but just as you want to enjoy the skills you've spent yrs developing do you really want to kiss -the world good bye.
If I save just 1 life with this post I will be very happy.
Dean
Having used a certain lacquer for nearly 30 yrs I believe these no longer have a place in the modern workshop. You are playing with iso-cyanates. The only recommended use is with filtered air pumped in from a clean atmosphere. Hardly any amateurs can afford this set up. The consequences of not doing this can be lethal - I know because I have just had the 12 month all clear from BLADDER CANCER - I always expected lung or throat cancer. Both my surgeon & I are of the opinion these chemicals will be the modern day asbestos.
Apart from that in 10 - 15 yrs they crack as their expansion co-efficient is different to that of the wood they are applied to. Actually the briefest life span of most finishes. If you are going to build something of a quality that might one day be restored then all materials used should be restorable.
So what alternative?
Naturally I was forced to look for one. As an antique restorer I know shellac can last 100 yrs or more & pure tung oil is also very good - but each has durability problems & the need for frequent maintenance.
I have waited many years for water-based finishes to reach a high standard & was pleasantly surprised by a visit to Resene. I have used their aqua clear on several dining tables & other furn with great results. Found it to be quite scratch & water & heat resistant.
The choice is yours but just as you want to enjoy the skills you've spent yrs developing do you really want to kiss -the world good bye.
If I save just 1 life with this post I will be very happy.
Dean
Re: Finish problem
I dis-agree with almost everything you have said "strat"
Common sense tells us to use protective clothing and breathing gear, but that does not mean if you do not you are going to die. Thats a brash statement.
Yes I agree some people have chemical sensitivity which makes them more susceptible to toxins in the enviroment be they natural or man made.
Proabably the worst stuff around these days is also the most commonly used paint, 2 pack poly urethane which maybe 5 percent of guitar builders may use, however the automotive industry pumps 1000's of litres of this stuff daily through paint guns, in open spray booths,back yards and commercial paint booths. In 60 yrs of thousands of litres of 2 pack paint sprayed daily, not one death can be directly contributed to the stuff.
I am not saying 2 pack is not bad for you, I personally believe it is, Im not saying nitro is not bad for you, I personally believe it is, but so is using fly spray at home.
Using common sense is the key, not scare mongering
Steve
Common sense tells us to use protective clothing and breathing gear, but that does not mean if you do not you are going to die. Thats a brash statement.
Yes I agree some people have chemical sensitivity which makes them more susceptible to toxins in the enviroment be they natural or man made.
Proabably the worst stuff around these days is also the most commonly used paint, 2 pack poly urethane which maybe 5 percent of guitar builders may use, however the automotive industry pumps 1000's of litres of this stuff daily through paint guns, in open spray booths,back yards and commercial paint booths. In 60 yrs of thousands of litres of 2 pack paint sprayed daily, not one death can be directly contributed to the stuff.
I am not saying 2 pack is not bad for you, I personally believe it is, Im not saying nitro is not bad for you, I personally believe it is, but so is using fly spray at home.
Using common sense is the key, not scare mongering
Steve
Re: Finish problem
I use full disposable overalls nitrile gloves and organic cartridges in the respirator spray and go is my method ,working in Engineering industry for 35 years welcome to all the exposure you can get .
John ,of way too many things to do.
- Graham Long
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Re: Finish problem
I've had similar issues when removing the masking tape. I now go along the edge of the fret board with a razor blade and scrape a small chamfer so the finish and the tape separated. Haven't had any problems since.
Hope it helps
Cheers
Graham
Hope it helps
Cheers
Graham
Re: Finish problem
Thanks everyone. I a managed a respectable fix with CA. I am going to be a lot more careful next time!
Jeremy D
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