Hi All… Reading the fretboard group buy thread got me wondering about local alternatives and what timber properties make a good fretboard. Having just cut a couple of fretboard blanks from a chunk of Cooktown ironwood, I have to wonder if fretboards really need to be this hard and heavy (with a handsaw it was a three beer job… on the recovery beer now).
For example, Tas Myrtle is as hard as or harder than many rosewoods, sands beautifully smooth and has no pores to worry about, but I can’t recall ever seeing it used as a fretboard. I think a tiger myrtle fretboard and bridge would look great and at price of timber they would come out at about $12 a set for tiger and half that from standard myrtle.
So I guess my question is… Is the timber density and hardness important in transferring vibration or is it something else?
What makes a good fretboard timber?
Can't really say that I can agree with you James about tassi myrtle being as hard as any of the rosewoods I have come across. I for one would not use tassi myrtle unless is has been acrylised as I consider it quite soft for a hardwood.
The some of properties I would want to see in FB wood are high density for wear and the ability to maintain a good grip on the fret tang, and stability because the last thing you want is a reactive fretboard introducing a twist into the neck over time.
As for resonance I do consider this to be a desirable but not overly important. I say this because ebony is known to absorb energy, indeed as I understand, ebony is the preferred bridge material for maple SS guitars as it helps pull back some of the trebles. Despite this there are many very good instruments out there with ebony FB's so I figure that resonance would not appear overly important in this area, however I am certain that many would argue this point.
Cheers
Kim
The some of properties I would want to see in FB wood are high density for wear and the ability to maintain a good grip on the fret tang, and stability because the last thing you want is a reactive fretboard introducing a twist into the neck over time.
As for resonance I do consider this to be a desirable but not overly important. I say this because ebony is known to absorb energy, indeed as I understand, ebony is the preferred bridge material for maple SS guitars as it helps pull back some of the trebles. Despite this there are many very good instruments out there with ebony FB's so I figure that resonance would not appear overly important in this area, however I am certain that many would argue this point.
Cheers
Kim
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sebastiaan56
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James,
Ive got to agree with Kim on the Tiger Myrtle but it sure would look amazing! Maybe if it was stabilised.
Tim Spittle has a list on his website http://www.australiantonewoods.com/prod03.htm I know Stu (Oz Tradie) has made an amazing fretboard out of She Oak. Ive used Jarrah, Cooktown Ironwood and NT Ironwood. All were acceptable.
As for the prevalence of ebony for the task, ahem.... Sebastiaan's visual theory... It looks good and in the past, in Europe, was readily available and not at Fair Trade prices. Im told it works easily with little grain bias and finishes to a high gloss which is why it was so extensively used for compound curve woodwinds like Clarinets, Oboes and Violin family fingerboards. I reckon its the momentum of tradition that gives Ebony its mystique.
BTW, I wouldnt want to think what my fretboards would look like after three beers. I have a hard enough time cutting straight as it is......
Ive got to agree with Kim on the Tiger Myrtle but it sure would look amazing! Maybe if it was stabilised.
Tim Spittle has a list on his website http://www.australiantonewoods.com/prod03.htm I know Stu (Oz Tradie) has made an amazing fretboard out of She Oak. Ive used Jarrah, Cooktown Ironwood and NT Ironwood. All were acceptable.
As for the prevalence of ebony for the task, ahem.... Sebastiaan's visual theory... It looks good and in the past, in Europe, was readily available and not at Fair Trade prices. Im told it works easily with little grain bias and finishes to a high gloss which is why it was so extensively used for compound curve woodwinds like Clarinets, Oboes and Violin family fingerboards. I reckon its the momentum of tradition that gives Ebony its mystique.
BTW, I wouldnt want to think what my fretboards would look like after three beers. I have a hard enough time cutting straight as it is......
make mine fifths........
I've used WA Sheoak, and Minneretci as local alternatives for FB. I love the look of both of them. The Minneretci would be my favorite, though the stuff is tough as nails, so you're going to want 5 or 6 beers to get through a couple of boards.
Besides the aforementioned stability, and wear resistance, being able to hold onto a fret tang is right up there. After that it just comes down to looks for me. I don't like the jet black ebony on most instruments, but there are those that do, and for some, the cosmetic details dictate that jet black is the best choice.
As far as damping goes, there are just too many variables in my builds to say if the choice of fret board material makes any difference at all. I suspect with a couple of carbon fiber rods, and laminated necks, that any advantage, or disadvantage of one species over an other as far as damping goes would be negligible.
Besides the aforementioned stability, and wear resistance, being able to hold onto a fret tang is right up there. After that it just comes down to looks for me. I don't like the jet black ebony on most instruments, but there are those that do, and for some, the cosmetic details dictate that jet black is the best choice.
As far as damping goes, there are just too many variables in my builds to say if the choice of fret board material makes any difference at all. I suspect with a couple of carbon fiber rods, and laminated necks, that any advantage, or disadvantage of one species over an other as far as damping goes would be negligible.
Yep you’re right Kim, they’re about the same density but not as hard, tas myrtle is the same janka hardness as tas blackwood both of which are a good third softer than rosewood. Also, holding the tang could be a real issue with myrtle if the ease you can rip through it with a saw is any guide (something I hadn’t considered).
Sebastiaan… the trick to cutting straight is to sharpen and set the saw before the beers… with timber as hard as ironwood you should sweat out the alcohol fast enough.
If Minneretci is harder to cut than the red ebony (Cooktown ironwood) was, then I want nothing to do with it! Qld walnut is another bitch of a timber to cut by hand as I just discovered, I’m sure it soaks up sand and imbeds it in the wood as it grows… shocking stuff.
I noticed that Tim has tas blackwood on his list, I never even gave it a thought (in fact I ruled it out as an option and I’m not even sure why) the harder stuff that grows in Qld could be a good (non red) option.
Of the exotic timbers my preference would be for ziricote rather than ebony… love the look and feel of the stuff (have a couple of bits stashed away for that special project I may or may not get to someday).
Sebastiaan… the trick to cutting straight is to sharpen and set the saw before the beers… with timber as hard as ironwood you should sweat out the alcohol fast enough.
If Minneretci is harder to cut than the red ebony (Cooktown ironwood) was, then I want nothing to do with it! Qld walnut is another bitch of a timber to cut by hand as I just discovered, I’m sure it soaks up sand and imbeds it in the wood as it grows… shocking stuff.
I noticed that Tim has tas blackwood on his list, I never even gave it a thought (in fact I ruled it out as an option and I’m not even sure why) the harder stuff that grows in Qld could be a good (non red) option.
Of the exotic timbers my preference would be for ziricote rather than ebony… love the look and feel of the stuff (have a couple of bits stashed away for that special project I may or may not get to someday).
I have used Myrtle for a uke fretboard and tiger myrtle for a weissenborn non-fretboard. Not sure if I would use it for a standard SS
Used cooktown ironwood on my OM and am really happy with it.
I would really like to know what Maton used in the 50's and 60's to make sure I never use it, My first Maton's fretboard was falling appart and deeply rutted
Used cooktown ironwood on my OM and am really happy with it.
I would really like to know what Maton used in the 50's and 60's to make sure I never use it, My first Maton's fretboard was falling appart and deeply rutted
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TimS
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I have listed a range of timber that could be used for fretboards. Whilst the density of the some of the timbers listed appears to be less desirable for a steel string instruments they work well for ukes, weissenborns and resonators.
Player technique also has a lot do do with fretboard wear.
regards
Tim
Player technique also has a lot do do with fretboard wear.
regards
Tim
[url]http://www.australiantonewoods.com[/url]
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Nick Payne
- Myrtle
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I prefer Indian Rosewood
For classicals, I think it's hard to beat Rosewood for its combination of good hardness, relatively low density, and good dimensional stability. It's superior to Ebony on all three of these criteria.
Some of the local hardwoods - eg Mulga - win on the density and stability but are extremely heavy. Fit a Mulga fretboard on a Mahogany neck and you tend to unbalance the instrument.
Some of the local hardwoods - eg Mulga - win on the density and stability but are extremely heavy. Fit a Mulga fretboard on a Mahogany neck and you tend to unbalance the instrument.
I've managed to get quite a few pieces of Tiger Myrtle off Tim over the last few years. ( Many thanks Australian Tonewoods ). I always weigh my wood when I get it on a gram per cubic cm. basis.
Tiger is usually around .75 to .8 ,and I wouldn't consider it for fretboards normally , but I received a more unusual piece which weighed .93. This is easily comparable with a lot of my Rosewoods ,in fact heavier than some . It's of the darker Myrtle variety
I was attracted to this piece as soon as I received it, as it is the right dimensions for fretboards ,, and being the heavier weight I thought may just suit on my tiger Myrtle project . As a matter of fact I had my heart set on it as fingerboard and bridge , as it would look so cool .The guitar will also have a Tiger neck . Some of you guys have me a bit concerned now
This piece seems to be durable enough . I know my bandsaw had to work when cutting it .
What do you reckon ??? What would you do ??
Here's a couple of pics :
Cheers guys
Tiger is usually around .75 to .8 ,and I wouldn't consider it for fretboards normally , but I received a more unusual piece which weighed .93. This is easily comparable with a lot of my Rosewoods ,in fact heavier than some . It's of the darker Myrtle variety
I was attracted to this piece as soon as I received it, as it is the right dimensions for fretboards ,, and being the heavier weight I thought may just suit on my tiger Myrtle project . As a matter of fact I had my heart set on it as fingerboard and bridge , as it would look so cool .The guitar will also have a Tiger neck . Some of you guys have me a bit concerned now
This piece seems to be durable enough . I know my bandsaw had to work when cutting it .
What do you reckon ??? What would you do ??
Here's a couple of pics :
Cheers guys
Craig Lawrence
Craig,
I sent some test pieces of various aussie woods to Larry Davies of Gallery Hardwoods so he could run them through his patented acrylisation process.
The wood is placed into a bath of acrylic solution inside a specialized high end pressure chamber. The chamber is then put into negative pressure or vacuum which over a period of time will cause the cells in the wood to give up or expelled any trapped air. The chamber is then switched over to apply positive pressure which refills the wood cells with acrylic.
The effectiveness of this process is largely dependant upon how much a acrylic a chosen species will hold and this is measured by weighing the test pieces before, and then after the process to give an indication of the uptake. Some wood just does not suit the process and with things like ebony and other very hard species there really is not much point anyhow.
But for softer woods, if the uptake is good, then the process is very beneficial, especially for things as pen blanks, which if you add a dye to the acrylic will colour lighter woods like high figure maple etc right through, and of course fretboards. Not only does the process stabilize the treated wood because no moisture exchange can occur with the wood cells now filled with acrylic, but also you get a very high wear factor and the bonus of a finish IN the wood.
The great news is that of the test species I sent to Larry, both Tassie Myrtle and WA Sheoak had very good uptake of acrylic and therefore suit the process well. The bad news is that the AU is crap to the greenback now and the to and from shipping would be a killer.
Still, if you really want to go with Tiger Myrtle, have the luxury of choosing any colour sample you desire, eg a lighter coloured piece with larger black spots that would normally be considered too soft and have no need to worry about those issues mentioned above, it may be worth contacting Larry when he gets back from his diving working holiday on his gold dredge to see what it would cost you to have a couple of board treated.
Cheers
Kim
I sent some test pieces of various aussie woods to Larry Davies of Gallery Hardwoods so he could run them through his patented acrylisation process.
The wood is placed into a bath of acrylic solution inside a specialized high end pressure chamber. The chamber is then put into negative pressure or vacuum which over a period of time will cause the cells in the wood to give up or expelled any trapped air. The chamber is then switched over to apply positive pressure which refills the wood cells with acrylic.
The effectiveness of this process is largely dependant upon how much a acrylic a chosen species will hold and this is measured by weighing the test pieces before, and then after the process to give an indication of the uptake. Some wood just does not suit the process and with things like ebony and other very hard species there really is not much point anyhow.
But for softer woods, if the uptake is good, then the process is very beneficial, especially for things as pen blanks, which if you add a dye to the acrylic will colour lighter woods like high figure maple etc right through, and of course fretboards. Not only does the process stabilize the treated wood because no moisture exchange can occur with the wood cells now filled with acrylic, but also you get a very high wear factor and the bonus of a finish IN the wood.
The great news is that of the test species I sent to Larry, both Tassie Myrtle and WA Sheoak had very good uptake of acrylic and therefore suit the process well. The bad news is that the AU is crap to the greenback now and the to and from shipping would be a killer.
Still, if you really want to go with Tiger Myrtle, have the luxury of choosing any colour sample you desire, eg a lighter coloured piece with larger black spots that would normally be considered too soft and have no need to worry about those issues mentioned above, it may be worth contacting Larry when he gets back from his diving working holiday on his gold dredge to see what it would cost you to have a couple of board treated.
Cheers
Kim
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sebastiaan56
- Blackwood
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- Location: Blue Mountains
Hi Craig,
there might be some useful info in this post here http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=81274 dealing with CA stabilisation of Buckeye Burl. I think the key might be the use of accerator to get it hard reasonably quickly. It can take a while to dry and the fumes are an issue but I think its a real possibility,
there might be some useful info in this post here http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=81274 dealing with CA stabilisation of Buckeye Burl. I think the key might be the use of accerator to get it hard reasonably quickly. It can take a while to dry and the fumes are an issue but I think its a real possibility,
make mine fifths........
Cheers Kim, Steve and Sebastiaan . I'm optimistic of a getting a good result one way or another, especially after your link thanks Sebastiaan.
Steve , I was one of those who got his fingers burnt with that Hard shellac crazing earlier on , and I'm not keen to give it another shot ,,,,well at the moment ..... Besides , even though it's a fairly hard finish , I doubt it would stand up to string wear .Thanks for your suggestion though mate.
The Tiger fingerboard I've cut is just too tempting and too cool not to try, and as I said ,it's a fairly dense piece in any case.
Time for some C.A. testing !!!
Cheers guys
Steve , I was one of those who got his fingers burnt with that Hard shellac crazing earlier on , and I'm not keen to give it another shot ,,,,well at the moment ..... Besides , even though it's a fairly hard finish , I doubt it would stand up to string wear .Thanks for your suggestion though mate.
The Tiger fingerboard I've cut is just too tempting and too cool not to try, and as I said ,it's a fairly dense piece in any case.
Time for some C.A. testing !!!
Cheers guys
Craig Lawrence
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Bob Connor
- Admin
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I appreciate where your coming from there Bob . I'll see how the testing goes .
Yes , the guitar will be a keeper for sure . The Tiger fretboard would tie in with other plans I have for it , so I'm hoping it works out , although I'm not forgetting "form over function " .
James , sounds like a great suggestion . Hey ! another jig !
Not another inlay surely ?? . Seriously , it sounds a bit high tech for me at the moment . I've never explored vacuum injection . I'll try to keep it simple for a start . God only knows how long it would take me to make it anyways !
Cheers guys
Yes , the guitar will be a keeper for sure . The Tiger fretboard would tie in with other plans I have for it , so I'm hoping it works out , although I'm not forgetting "form over function " .
James , sounds like a great suggestion . Hey ! another jig !
Not another inlay surely ?? . Seriously , it sounds a bit high tech for me at the moment . I've never explored vacuum injection . I'll try to keep it simple for a start . God only knows how long it would take me to make it anyways ! Cheers guys
Craig Lawrence
Jaco Patorius ripped the frets out of his P bass and then gave the whole fretboard a coat of marine epoxy....rough as guts but it did the trick
Craig wrote:Many thanks for all that info Kim.
It's given me an ideaFailing Larry's Acrylisation method , What if I flood The fretboard surface with thin C.A. ? It certainly wicks in and sets bloody hard . Anyones thoughts here ?
Cheers,
Hi all
Craig sorry I'm late at gettin back to you,been a touch sick.
I tried the Superglue and think it will work fine.Tried a few other things as well(basically anything I could find Crystal clear glue,thinned,Danish oil,Hard shellac,HHG).Superglue is the easiest to use and doesn't add much to the colour.Flood with SG let it sink in flood again(this coat won't disappear)scrape off while still thick.Sanded back with 320 wet an dryan buff with 0000 steel wool.
Between two of us we robbed it with a low E string and all it did was polish it some more and the string didn't have any residue in the windings..cheers Steve
Craig sorry I'm late at gettin back to you,been a touch sick.
I tried the Superglue and think it will work fine.Tried a few other things as well(basically anything I could find Crystal clear glue,thinned,Danish oil,Hard shellac,HHG).Superglue is the easiest to use and doesn't add much to the colour.Flood with SG let it sink in flood again(this coat won't disappear)scrape off while still thick.Sanded back with 320 wet an dryan buff with 0000 steel wool.
Between two of us we robbed it with a low E string and all it did was polish it some more and the string didn't have any residue in the windings..cheers Steve
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