Long phone call, water based finish

[DarwinStrings]

I just got off the phone after a very long call to the man who supplies the acid cat for Maton guitars. Not for the lower cost range but for the higher end. He said all the Maton guitars over about the $1000 used Erlac Acid cure.

During the phone call however, we moved to the subject of water based finishes and he informed me that they have a product that is as hard or if not, harder than the acid cat. It is a water based acrylic, can be buffed, has higher impact resistance than acid cat, is gloss, is a bit more expensive, is crystal clear (no blue hue) and also burns in for repairs with no witness lines.

So once again I am on the water based experiment ( was just about to go buy pre or acid cat) I hope this time I can end with a smile.

I have to buy 4litres of sealer at about $15per litre and 2.5 litres of top coat at $20 per litre and will also have to freight it here as they have no distributors (surprise surprise....not) in the N.T. At least I only have to freight within Australia.....I may end up humbugging one of you southern mob to help.

Pete Brown you would be welcome to take half and try some yourself if you like, assuming your ears pricked up when you saw water based in the title to this thread.

Jim

[graham mcdonald]

And whoever it is sells it as...?

Or does it cost us $25 to find out

cheers

graham

[Dennis Leahy]

Or does it cost us $25 to find out

cheers

graham

[DarwinStrings]

The brand name is in the post but if you want his name and number I'll do it for $25AUS rather than $25 US. The $25 entitles you to tell him I gave you his number which further entitles you to sweet FA.

I must say I am getting great mileage out of Sylvan's post

The water based one is called H20 Plus Varnish and the sealer for it is H20 plus floor primer N17. The acid cat that he said Maton uses is Finent acid cat.

hehehe I'm still laughing at Grahams post. The web site is www.erlac.gr and you need to clic English unless you read Greek. The Aussie head office is in Melbourne

The only info I didn't get was how it feels on the neck, if you want to phone him just yell, he has quite alot to say and will answer your questions with zeal. He mentioned that not all their products are on the site as well.

Jim

[graham mcdonald]

I'm seriously thinking about changing my entire website to be password protected, so you can't even look at anything without paying me lots of money. I've spent close on 30 years doing this, and you expect me to contribute my valuable information for nothing!!! To say nothing about the huge tax deductible costs to have my website hosted and for domain name charges. You people should be grateful I even participate. Ungrateful wretches, all of youse.

Interestingly enough, if you go hunting through the Sylvan Wells site, on one of the gallery pages he credits Harry Fleishman with inventing and developing this magical fretting system. Does Harry get royalties, one might ask?

And I am fascinated by the trade-marked Tone Enhancer technologies.

Stirring the possum just a little

graham

[Paul B]

I'm seriously thinking about changing my entire website to be password protected, so you can't even look at anything without paying me lots of money. I've spent close on 30 years doing this, and you expect me to contribute my valuable information for nothing!!! To say nothing about the huge tax deductible costs to have my website hosted and for domain name charges. You people should be grateful I even participate. Ungrateful wretches, all of youse.

If you want money out of us you'll have to really contribute, maybe try writing a bloody book! Oh, you already have? Twice? You authors are already rich arn't you? - just look at Stephen King!

[graham mcdonald]

More seriously, the waterbased finish sounds interesting, though the claims they make sound uncannily like the claims for every other waterbased acrylic for instruments - water clear, burns in to previous coats, no witness lines and the rest. I think we discussed that a few week ago!

Any specific reason why you want to use the sealer as well as the top coat?

cheers

graham

(I'll PM the invoice for my contribution time

[kiwigeo]

Okay folks Ive decided to have a workshop open day where you all pay me $25 to view my stash of tonewood. For an extra $10 Ill let you touch the stacks.

[Lillian]

Does the $35 include samples too Martin?

[DarwinStrings]

Well just because the sealer is made to sand and should make the job easier, hope to grain fill with sealer. Yes, the claims...the claimmmmmmssssssss. Your right it is always the same, the only way I can work it out is to try it Graham.

In truth I am really a bit sick of it all as it is easy to go to pre or acid cat (their acid cat was well priced too and if Maton shuv it on a $6000 guitar that seems like a recommendation to me).

But like people persistence with shellac Its more ideals than convenience I suppose. You can also drink the solvent provided you don't mind the thought of what fish do in it.

They don't sell this product as a instrument finish either its made for floors.

Ammm Martin...no offense but I don't want to touch your wood

Jim

[Pete Brown]

Pete Brown you would be welcome to take half and try some yourself if you like, assuming your ears pricked up when you saw water based in the title to this thread.

Jim, my ears did prick up and I sincerely appreciate the offer, but my guitar-building projects are in the Too Hard basket at present.

To be honest, I'm pretty fed up with the finish product dilemma - yep, I'll concede that it's a self-imposed one. The time I've invested in my current crop of instruments is too significant to contemplate yet another experiment with yet another untried finish material. As I'm still undecided on the finish I'll use, they can sit there "in the white" for another month or two while I continue procrastinating. Hey, I can always just start another guitar! I'm sure I can squeeze another one into the "spare" room if I move the furniture again.

I think it's prudent to reflect on comments made by Rick Turner (I think), who made the point that when a new furniture or floor finish - water based or otherwise - appears on the scene with great fanfare, there's absolutely no reason to assume that the all-too-familiar claims will translate across to the unique requirements of our instrument finishes, even if others in other fields are enjoying good results. The first version of Ubeaut's hard shellac is a perfect example. What I've also come to recognise is that initial results with a previously untried finish may well be encouraging, but it's how it holds up over a number of years that really counts.

Nevertheless, I wish anyone who tries it the best of luck. I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

[Stu]

I'm keen to try this water-based product out and have a few spec. builds in the pipeline I can use as test pieces. Won't try it on commissions though.

I'm currently using thinners based products but I'm also
wanting to familiarise myself with more eco-friendly coatings,
particularly their useability and longevity.

Happy to be a guinea pig.


cheers, Stu

[DarwinStrings]

Stu I would love you to be the Guinea pig. The company is in Melbourne if you want his name and number just yell and ill pm it to you.

Jim

[DarwinStrings]

I'm not real impressed with Rick Turner at the moment Pete and I know you can't assume but if you don't experiment you get nothing. When it comes to instruments we have to use what is made for other industries really, as compared to furniture we are just a spit in the ocean.

Jim

[Rick Turner]

Rick might not be too impressed with you if he knew your actual name As it is, he's just not too impressed with a chimera behind whom is perhaps hiding a real person.

I hate this handle stuff. Luthiers should have the guts to sign their real names and not hide behind aliases. I know it's cute and all that, but it leads to ill behaviour. If you're going to call me out on something, have the balls to say it directly to me or shut up. Feel free to email me; don't snipe behind my back. If I've offended you, just let me know and I'll either apologize or refute your assertions.

Look, re. water borne finishes, it's been kind of the flip of the story of the boy who cried wolf. I've been hearing for well over 20 years now that this one or that one is the Holy Grail of finishes, this one has perfect burn in, that one has no blue tinge, this one buffs beautifully and doesn't imprint. In every single case so far, the hype has proven to be overblown, and one luthier after another either abandons the water based stuff and goes back to TruOil, varnish, lacquer, or one of the newer catalyzed finishes. My own experience with Crystalac was an unmitigated disaster, and thus burned by water, I've decided to let some other crusaders do the dirty work. I now think I'd want to see someone using a product for at least three years before I'd trust it well enough to shoot or brush some on one of my guitars on which I am responsible for warranty work which includes the finish.

I now shoot polyester over a polyurethane sealer over either Waterlox tung oil varnish, WEST epoxy or both. If pressed, I can start a finish on a Monday, do all coats and between coat sandings, and rub out and set that instrument up on a Thursday night. I did precisely that the week before the Healdsburg Guitar Festival in 2007, and I still have that guitar and there is absolutely no shrinkage into the pores; the finish is beautifully thin; and it's held up to two years of playing, gigging, and parties. This, by the way, is NOT a UV version of the polyester; it's cobalt and MEKP cured.

OK, I do have a fully legal spray booth. I am shooting twenty or so instruments a month. I am set up to spray anything including nitro lacquer. I don't have the supply problems that some of you A&NZ luthiers have. I also don't have a burning desire to be a pioneer in water based finishes. I tried that, and it cost me the worst review I've every had for any of my instruments, and in this day of everything is forever on the Internet, that kind of thing I do not need.

Some one of you work it all out. Prove it for three years or so. Then I'll see if believe it and I'll try it. Or, as I've also said, when Bob Taylor switches over to a water borne finish, then I'll know it's real. As it is, I use the same materials he uses minus the UV initiator, and it's great.

Right now my one finish trial is about to be with Epiphanes varnish...what Bill Collings is using on his top of the line mandolins. There's a formula which does not need sanding between coats if you re-coat within 72 hours.

[DarwinStrings]

Mr Turner I have, so far, PM'ed your ANZLF, Emailed your ANZLF, PM'ed You at D.Tar Forum, Emailed you at D-Tar and also joined your forum and posted three threads (all asking the same question) which have only just been posted by you (one week after the first submission) after I made this comment "I'm not real impressed with Rick Turner at the moment Pete" on the ANZLF. The first time I put my question to you was months ago via email and you did not respond. I understand you are busy as am I. I still manage to answer my customers quickly though and I feel I have been patient enough to now be unimpressed by your lack of response.

Nice bit of name calling Rick, I had to look up "chimera" although I know what hiding means. My real name is Jim and I live in Darwin you will find (If you really need to find me) that there is only one guitar maker in Darwin by the name of Jim. As for my sir name I would be happy to supply that to you as well as my phone number and address, just email me as I have instructed on my web site.

To me ( I could be wrong) it seemed you were avoiding giving out information that did not fit within the standard range of your product (that would be fine by me and all you needed to do was say so) although you have now answered me on your forum and offered to supply me with the information I was seeking.

I now find myself in a difficult situation, that is to say that although I am very impressed with your D-Tar products and would like to use them but I am feeling personally uncomfortable with you and am left wondering why you managed to answer me in this thread within twenty four hours when this thread had very little to do with your D-Tar products.

Maybe you did not receive any of my PM's or emails and if that is the case I will be happy to retract the statement that has prompted your reply to this thread.

Also I feel I should thank you for offering the information I have requested. Last night I almost hit the buy button on a L.R. Baggs but did not complete the transaction as the thought of this D-Tar situation was nagging at me. Now that you have offered this information I would like to try the D-Tar product as I have tried the L.R. Baggs before.

This is your offer from the D-Tar forum "Jim, email me off-forum and I'll send you the schematic for adding the volume and tone control. rickturner.rtguitars@gmail.com" I have emailed you at this address but if you do not receive my email you can forward that information to.... toejam@post.com

Jim

[Pete Brown]

On the topic at hand...

Thanks for contributing Rick. Your opinion of water-based finishes is well known and I understand completely why you hold that position. Your reputation was damaged because of them and, as you say, once a bad review hits the internet, it's there for good.

Could it be that our modern water-based finishes have suffered the same fate? From what I understand, the early offerings were pretty dire and deserved their poor reputation. Regardless of how much they may have improved since then, it would seem to be a uphill battle for that perception to be changed to the extent that they gain wider acceptance within the lutherie community and, perhaps more importantly, among the guitar-buying public.

when Bob Taylor switches over to a water borne finish, then I'll know it's real.

I understand the rationale behind this comment, but if you accept that there's a long-standing prejudice against water-based, as well as a savvy but conservative guitar-buying public, you'd have to concede that it's not just the perceived shortcomings in the products which prevent him making such a switch. And in his case, if it ain't broke, why would he fix it?

One well-respected US builder, Gerald Sheppard, who reportedly uses one of the water-based products simply advertises his finishes as "full gloss". It's safe to assume he's aware of these prejudices so it follows that he's concealing what he's actually using from prospective customers - in no respect dishonestly, but as a means of dealing with the conservatism of would-be customers.

[Rick Turner]

Jim, I took a much needed break from being so totally available. I was recovering from our NAMM show, recovering from a cold, and behind on a lot of guitar building projects. I cannot and will not be responsible for being the electronic answer man 12/24/7. I'm known for being generous with my knowledge, but I hate being badgered. Frankly, you're asking me for a favor...you're asking for help in modifying one of my products in a manner that is fine and all that, but it's not in our normal set of instructions; it's not a question we're readily set up to answer, and you're turning it into an emergency...which it is not.

If I were to ask anyone for help modifying one of their products, I'd do it respectfully and fully understanding that it might not be a top priority for them. I also don't believe that failure to immediately respond to Internet hounding should be chalked up as a bad mark against anyone. You may live on-line, but I do not.

I'll send you the schematic you want, but back off, get off my case, and learn a bit of patience. For that matter, if you really wanted to do this so badly, you could get our normal volume and tone control module and figure out from that how to wire the pots the way you want to do it. This is not rocket science. It's two pots and a capacitor... Reverse engineering something like this is not difficult.

I see from a post you've put up on the D-TAR website that you do not know what size soldering iron to get. From that question I assume you do not have much experience at electronic soldering. If that is true, you may want to consider getting more experience in electronic tech work before you go modifying electronic products. It is really easy to screw things up if you start working on circuit boards, and if you are soldering jacks, pots, etc., and don't know what you're doing you can wind up spending hours working on something that hums and bleats and doesn't make much music. Please get a grounding in electronic tech work before you go poking around with a soldering iron. There's plenty of good advice on-line...

[Pete Brown]

Yet another attempt to address the topic...

In my previous post, I made some assumptions about the prejudices and level of conservatism among the general guitar-buying public with regard to finish materials. To give that community a voice on the matter, I've started a new thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... p?t=148087

Maybe they're more progressive than I've given them credit for. We'll see!

[Rick Turner]

Pete, there was even greater prejudice against polyester than against water based finishes when Bob Taylor and Jean Larrivee, then Dana Bourgeois, Charles Fox, and Bill Collings started using it for top coats and/or sealer coats. These are makers who are not afraid to use anything that really works, and they are willing to educate their customers as to the reasons for the use of the new products. Raw prejudice is not the reason why no major manufacturers are using gloss water based finishes. The reason is that these finishes have not proven production-worthy for a significant list of reasons, not the least of which is time. If I can do a really good poly finish in four days without needing a UV booth, why would I want to do an inferior finish that could take two to three weeks? And if I'm going to go to a more home shop level of finish, my choice will be either Behlen RockHard or Epiphanes varnish where I can really promote my use of it and charge good money as a premium for the finish.

I do hope that there is a good...a really good...water borne gloss guitar finish some one of these days. I do understand the desire for it for all the usual reasons, but as of today, I still see the main ingredient as being wishful thinking.

[Pete Brown]

Rick, as usual you add great value to the discussion. Thanks for contributing.

[quote="Rick Turner""]when Bob Taylor switches over to a water borne finish, then I'll know it's real[/quote]
No, actually, when Rick Turner switches over to a water borne finish, then I'll know it's real.

[kiwigeo]

Rick and Jim, might be a good idea to take the D-TAR discussion offline. IMHO its getting a bit personal and its definitely off topic.

Thanks Martin

[DarwinStrings]

Mr Turner, I asked the solder question as a way to get something posted on your forum, I already knew the answer to it but after a month I was looking for a way to get any response from your business.

Jim

[DarwinStrings]

Yep sorry Martin..will do

Jim

[Rick Turner]

It was not I who brought dissatisfaction with me to this forum...Jim made what I consider a wholly inappropriate and bitchy remark. I snapped back.

Jim's got his schematic. He can do with it what he will.

I participate here and elsewhere voluntarily. If I am unavailable at some point and for some length of time, that is my right. There are plenty of other people with answers who can jump in here or there or anywhere with answers to questions re. lutherie, electronics, etc. My own participation on line in this or any other forum or via email is hardly necessary to anyone's life or career outside of a small circle of family, friends, employees, and associates. I reserve the right to be unavailable, to be very private, and not to answer all questions directed at me. I also reserve the right to be available, to be very public, and to answer the questions I choose to answer. If anyone thinks that I'm an a...hole for not being immediately available to them, all I can say is find another person to be your guru. I'll certainly disappoint you.