Sound Board

[Tigermyrtle]

Thanks Allen, Thats a great help and a good start.
Cheers Tasmania Bob

[Tigermyrtle]

Well its looks like the jury is back with there decision on the soundboard if using high figured fiddleback blackwood back & sides.
Use a plain blackwood for the soundboard.
Regards Bob

[Tigermyrtle]

We all have different opinions thank god.
I was talking to Gary Rizzolo this morning who is one of the best Luthiers in Australia, & a really nice guy, who told me in his view, Celery top is the best in the Tasmanian species to use as a soundboard on a larger instrument.
And as a few members in this forum have said plain blackwood is also a good choice.
Regards Bob Tasmania

Both KB and Blackwood have been used with great success but I would avoid celery top. Regardless of what you use you will need to approach bracing with the top at hand in mind, forget about any notion of bracing this way for that wood and that way for this because it just does not work that way cause each board is different.

If you choose blackwood, and that is a good chioce for a wiesy by the way, I would look for some of the lighter coloured stuff that is general lighter in weight as well and has good sustain when you tap and it . Avoid anything with a lot of figure as it will necessarily be less stiff due to the shortness of grain responsible for the figure and floppy is not a good starting point for any top.

Cheers

Kim

[GregL]

Hi anzlfers,

I love curly Blackwood, and as I've seen a beautiful curly Koa-soundboard guitar in the US (Breedlove I think), I'd like to use curly Blackwood as the soundboard timber on a future build. The strong sense I get here is that curly Blackwood is not a good choice for soundboard, but is there anything that can be done to make it reasonable, or should I forget about it completely?
A related question: is Huon Pine suitable for a soundboard (if I have to forgo curly Blackwood)?

Thanks,
GregL.

[Tigermyrtle]

Hi Greg,
Curly blackwood as a soundboard, has been used with good success with some builders, but please note a lot of luthiers in this forum recommend using plain blackwood as the soundboard, but thats up to you do what you want, as for Huon pine this has also been used as a soundboard do some research, you will find a lot of luthiers doing new things and thats what its all about.
Regards Bob Tasmania

Hi anzlfers,

I love curly Blackwood, and as I've seen a beautiful curly Koa-soundboard guitar in the US (Breedlove I think), I'd like to use curly Blackwood as the soundboard timber on a future build. The strong sense I get here is that curly Blackwood is not a good choice for soundboard, but is there anything that can be done to make it reasonable, or should I forget about it completely?
A related question: is Huon Pine suitable for a soundboard (if I have to forgo curly Blackwood)?

Thanks,
GregL.

[Allen]

Welcome to the forum Greg.

As far as figured wood for the sound board goes, there's figured, and then theres FIGURED. If it's so figured that your going to end up with a lot of short grain, then to keep it from self destructing, you're going to need to keep it thicker and brace heavier. Not necessarily the best choice for a top.

Huon pine should make a very nice top. I've got a few pieces stashed away for the future.

[Tigermyrtle]

Good answer Allen,
There's figured and there's FIGURED you could not have giving a better answer, in other words if you want to have figure in a soundboard use only a light figure where there is not too much wild grain and as you say Huon pine makes a nice top.
Cheers
Bob Tasmania
'

Welcome to the forum Greg.

As far as figured wood for the sound board goes, there's figured, and then theres FIGURED. If it's so figured that your going to end up with a lot of short grain, then to keep it from self destructing, you're going to need to keep it thicker and brace heavier. Not necessarily the best choice for a top.

Huon pine should make a very nice top. I've got a few pieces stashed away for the future.

[liam_fnq]

i've seen a photo of a weissenborn made spanish (or normal) style steel string guitar. ie. solid, rounded neck.

it had a lightly figured koa top w/ rope binding. it looked

obviously i cant say whether its thicker or braced heavier to allow for the figure.

nor can i comment on sound.

but i can say it has been done.

[Tigermyrtle]

High figure in a Weissenborn is not a problem, totally different to a Acoustic guitar.
I have got a Weissenborn build on the go at the moment as my first build using high figured fiddleback blackwood slow job but I will get there.
Regards
Bob, Tasmania

i've seen a photo of a weissenborn made spanish (or normal) style steel string guitar. ie. solid, rounded neck.

it had a lightly figured koa top w/ rope binding. it looked

obviously i cant say whether its thicker or braced heavier to allow for the figure.

nor can i comment on sound.

but i can say it has been done.

[liam_fnq]

read closer

weissenborn made spanish (or normal) style steel string guitar. ie. solid, rounded neck.

weissenborn made guitars that weren't hollow neck hawaiian style intuments also.

if the photo wasn't in a book of mine i'd post it.

[Tigermyrtle]

Point taken, I looked closer its been a long day,
My weissenborn will be a hollow neck.
Cheers
Bob Tasmania

read closer

weissenborn made spanish (or normal) style steel string guitar. ie. solid, rounded neck.

weissenborn made guitars that weren't hollow neck hawaiian style intuments also.

if the photo wasn't in a book of mine i'd post it.

[Bob Connor]

High figure in a Weissenborn is not a problem, totally different to a Acoustic guitar.
I have got a Weissenborn build on the go at the moment as my first build using high figured fiddleback blackwood slow job but I will get there.
Regards
Bob, Tasmania

Bob

That's the biggest load of horse shite I've ever heard.

An acoustic soundboard is an acoustic soundboard is an acoustic ad nauseaum.

You've just seen Rick Turner state.

Bob, yes, I'd say that given the critical nature of guitar soundboards, that being tone comes first over beauty, and that having to make up for inherent weakness of flamed figure with heavier bracing would mean that the plainer stuff can be worked to sound better. You can take it thinner and brace it lighter for a given strength and stiffness.

Yet you come up with contradictory statements that are simply not true.

I'm sorry but you can't try and perpetuate this type of bullshit on internet forums where people may take take your statements as being accurate.

[Allen]

A hollow neck Weissenborn style instrument has some tremendous stresses on the soundboard. Large expanse of wood, very heavy string gauge, and in many cases a bridge / saddle set up that is higher than on your run of the mill 000/0M guitar. All this adds up to paying extra attention to the choice of top, bracing etc.

[Taffy Evans]

Onya, Geelong Bob, I agree with your comments, you beat me to posting the reply, and you used better phrasing than I would have.

[Kim]

Hello Greg, welcome to the ANZLF.

To address your question, you 'can' use curly blackwood, huon, a packing crate or whatever takes your fancy for a soundboard, there are lots of plywood topped guitars out there and some of them sound OK to. But think about 'why' the spruces have been traditionally chosen for top shelf instruments. Among the desirable properties is a high stiffness to weight ratio. Now think about what it is that makes curly wood curly. It's extreme grain runout, where the grain of the wood weaves up and down from the top of the plate to the back, and as it does so, the light refracts in an alternate pattern dark to light, dark to light giving a very pleasing visual depth to the wood, especially once under a finish.

Now this 'depth' may look pretty cool, but the fact is that all that runout reduces the structural integrity of the material. So a highly figured board will have poor stiffness to weight ratio and there is the trade-off, you 'can' have the eye candy, but it comes at a high cost once you close your eyes and listen. As for huon, I am yet to find a board with a comparable stiffness to weight ratio to spruce no matter how well quarted and fine grain it is. Yes you 'can' use it for a top, but why would you if you had access to spruce or bunya?

Cheers

Kim

[Tigermyrtle]

Bob, its not meant as bullshit, see my reply to liam fnq above.
Its been a very long day in fact a very long week and very tired.
I am not a luthier and I don't claim to be one I am hear to learn,and sorry I forgot about Ricks reply in his post.
Maybe I better shut up and go away when I am tired.
no need to be rude you could have answered better than that.
Regards
Bob Tasmania


Bob

That's the biggest load of horse shite I've ever heard.

An acoustic soundboard is an acoustic soundboard is an acoustic ad nauseaum.

You've just seen Rick Turner state.

Bob, yes, I'd say that given the critical nature of guitar soundboards, that being tone comes first over beauty, and that having to make up for inherent weakness of flamed figure with heavier bracing would mean that the plainer stuff can be worked to sound better. You can take it thinner and brace it lighter for a given strength and stiffness.

Yet you come up with contradictory statements that are simply not true.

I'm sorry but you can't try and perpetuate this type of bullshit on internet forums where people may take take your statements as being accurate.[/quote]

[Kim]

When i wrote the above there was only one reply to Greg's question, a knock at the door and look what happens while i am away

As for Tassie Bob's comments, it would be beneficial for all if he would spend the time to complete at least one instrument of some kind before offering up both his first and second hand advice on this forum.

Cheers

Kim

[Tigermyrtle]

Well there you go thanks Allen,
I am here to learn, and here I am learning from someone with manners.
Thanks.
Best regards
Bob Tasmania

A hollow neck Weissenborn style instrument has some tremendous stresses on the soundboard. Large expanse of wood, very heavy string gauge, and in many cases a bridge / saddle set up that is higher than on your run of the mill 000/0M guitar. All this adds up to paying extra attention to the choice of top, bracing etc.

[Bob Connor]

King Billy is a great wood for guitar tops.

Why?

It is really light in weight.

Why isn't Huon and Celery Top Pine a good acoustic guitar top?

Because it's bloody heavy.

Doesn't matter how stiff the wood is. If it's too heavy, a normal set of guitar strings won't make the guitar responsive.

BTW Huon and Celery will probably make wonderful guitar tops for instruments that will be amplified with a pickup. They'll provide enough damping to ensure that a piezo works without a lot of feedback.

[Bob Connor]

Bob, its not meant as bullshit, see my reply to liam fnq above.
Its been a very long day in fact a very long week and very tired.
I am not a luthier and I don't claim to be one I am hear to learn,and sorry I forgot about Ricks reply in his post.
Maybe I better shut up and go away when I am tired.
no need to be rude you could have answered better than that.
Regards
Bob Tasmania


Bob

That's the biggest load of horse shite I've ever heard.

An acoustic soundboard is an acoustic soundboard is an acoustic ad nauseaum.

You've just seen Rick Turner state.

Bob, yes, I'd say that given the critical nature of guitar soundboards, that being tone comes first over beauty, and that having to make up for inherent weakness of flamed figure with heavier bracing would mean that the plainer stuff can be worked to sound better. You can take it thinner and brace it lighter for a given strength and stiffness.

Yet you come up with contradictory statements that are simply not true.

I'm sorry but you can't try and perpetuate this type of bullshit on internet forums where people may take take your statements as being accurate.

[/quote]


I am not being rude at all.

I don't believe that people should subject to untruths.

If I call a spade a bloody shovel so be it.

[Tigermyrtle]

I will give you the last word on that,
I can not be bothered trying to explain myself.
Bob Tasmania

[GregL]

Hi anzlf,

Thanks for the welcome! And for all the information. As much as I like the thought of an all fiddleback Blackwood guitar, I can see why it may not make an ideal soundboard. I think construction of a Plan B is in order!

Just a quick intro to myself, as I impolitely forgot before I posted my first question! I'm a novice who's lurked on this forum for a while, hoping that some of the great craftsmanship and knowledge might rub off on me. I "made" my first electric guitar back in the mid 1970's (used a neck from an old guitar and made my own body), and my next attempt (StewMac OOO kit) is almost finished - uncraftsmanlike, but a useful learning experience. I have timber for my next 3 acoustics and 2 electrics in the shed, and inspiration from this forum, the thing I haven't got enough of is time. Oh well, I've seen I'm not alone there!

Thanks,
GregL.

[ozziebluesman]

Liam is this the weissy you where thinking of. It is called a Kona and has a spanish heel neck join around the 7th fret. Same 25" scale as a hollow neck and usually tuned to E open tunings. I would like to have a go at building one of these one day.



I'm with Bob, (Geelong) that a straight grained top is the way to go on a weissenborn style guitar.

Cheers

Alan

[Rick Turner]

Just a comment on Huon pine...

I'm in the middle of writing a magazine article on "Mrs. Wilson's Dingy", a boat built in 1871 of which my friend Ned Trewartha has made three replicas. Ned is a master boat builder, and I've spent a bit of time with him in his shed learning about his craft and sharing a bit of mine.

The thing that makes Huon so good for boats is it's incredibly high resin content...up to 17% by weight in the timber. That resin makes Huon extremely insect and rot resistant, but it also makes for a very high damping factor. The wood just doesn't ring.

Leave what's left for the boatbuilders...

[Bob Gleason]

I was trying to follow along on this thread to see if I could learn something about woods in NZ. You guys digress a wee bit! My wife and I will be traveling on the South Island for 3-4 weeks in early 10 and it would be great to look for some of these trees that you are talking about. Always fun to see instrument woods on the hoof. In the middle of the thread someone brought up Australian Red Cedar. Here in Hawaii it's called Toon or Tuna. Grows into very large trees from near sea level to about 4,000 ft. elevation. Smells great when used as kerfing, but feels kind of rubbery to be used for any other luthiery purposes, other than my kitchen cabinets for which it looks nice. I'd be interested in hearing the names of any other instrument woods that might grow on South Island so that maybe I can find I.D. info on them. Don't worry, I won't be cuttin' anything! I generally travel with koa sets though and will be looking for some possible trades for interesting stuff! I have heard that I might have trouble bringing wood into NZ, and any thoughts on that are appreciated.Aloha.-Bob