Sound Board

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:00 am

Sound Board Question has any members used King Billy, Celery Top, Or Blackwood as a soundboard.
What are the pros and cons.?
What one do you feel makes the best sounding soundboard.
Back & sides will be fiddleback blackwood.
Cheers Bob

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:27 am

Both KB and Blackwood have been used with great success but I would avoid celery top. Regardless of what you use you will need to approach bracing with the top at hand in mind, forget about any notion of bracing this way for that wood and that way for this because it just does not work that way cause each board is different.

If you choose blackwood, and that is a good chioce for a wiesy by the way, I would look for some of the lighter coloured stuff that is general lighter in weight as well and has good sustain when you tap and it . Avoid anything with a lot of figure as it will necessarily be less stiff due to the shortness of grain responsible for the figure and floppy is not a good starting point for any top.

Cheers

Kim

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:13 am

Hi Kim,
Thanks for you reply, much appreciated. (edited by forum admin)
And as you were saying if useing blackwood as a soundboard plain blackwood would have a better tone that figured a lot of luthiers have told me the same, and as you say King Billy would also work but from all I have been told it needs to be braced different. (edited by forum admin)
As for my Weissenborn that will be all figured blackwood as with this I don't think a figured top would make any difference.
Cheers Bob

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:54 pm

I've use Blackwood and it's a great choice on a Weis. Not tried it on a standard guitar, but there is no reason why it can't produce a very nice sounding instrument in the right hands.

I've got a piece of King Billy that is just superb and rings just like the German Spruce that I have. I'm letting it season a couple of years before I will use it, but am really looking forward to it.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:37 pm

Thanks Allen, I reckon from the comments received King Billy would be the one (edited by forum admin) out of the Tasmanian timbers shown to Rick Turner suitable for sounboards, King Billy was the one he liked the most.
Regards Bob

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:46 pm

I wouldn't be putting King Billy on anything larger than an OM if it's a steel string. And an OM is even stretching the friendship.

There's a couple of blokes on the forum who have built dreadnoughts from it and I believe they are now looking at replacing soundboards after only a couple of years.

Maton have tried it for dreadies and I believe they found they had to leave it too thick to retain the required longitudinal strength which resulted in a fairly plunky, thunky sounding instrument.

Works quite nicely on parlor guitars. We've built a couple of 0-18s from it and we're pretty pleased with it.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:17 pm

Thanks for that advise Bob,
I will e-mail my customer and ask what Style of Guitar he is building, before coming back and asking for more advise.
The customer in the States just wants to build a Tasmanian Guitar.
He has already built from Blackhearted Sassafras back & sides, so this time he wants to try fiddleback blackwood and a soundboard from here.
Thanks again.
Cheers Bob

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:33 pm

A real killer look it to go with Australian Cedar with the Blackwood.

[/img]

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:36 pm

Bob, my boat builder pal, Ned Trewartha is now making tenor ukuleles, and he's using some superb King Billy for soundboards. The stuff I've seen in his shed most resembles our Engelmann spruce in both appearance and hardness (not very...) and stiffness (pretty darned good). The ukes sound wonderful. So I'll agree that it's at least great for small instruments. I've not seen any quarter sawn King Billy in widths sufficient for larger guitar tops, so I just can't comment on how appropriate it would be for them. Sure makes for nice boats, though!

BTW, I writing an article on "Mrs. Wilson's Dingy"...the original of which is at the Maritime Museum in Hobart. Ned has made three replicas. It was originally planked in either King Billy or Huon pine, and has some celery top and some unidentified eucalypt in her as well. The boat was rowed for at least 80 years, maybe 100. Now that's some good timber!

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:25 pm

That Cedar top looks beautiful Allen, great looking Instrument.
Regards Bob

Allen wrote:A real killer look it to go with Australian Cedar with the Blackwood.

[/img]

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:34 pm

G'Day Rick, from what everyone says out there in Luthier world, King Billy is more suitable for smaller instruments, (edited by forum admin)
On other note the person that rowed that Dingy' for 80 years maybe 100 must be bloody tired.

Regards Bob

The ukes sound wonderful. So I'll agree that it's at least great for small instruments. I've not seen any quarter sawn King Billy in widths sufficient for larger guitar tops, so I just can't comment on how appropriate it would be for them. Sure makes for nice boats, though!

BTW, I writing an article on "Mrs. Wilson's Dingy"...the original of which is at the Maritime Museum in Hobart. Ned has made three replicas. It was originally planked in either King Billy or Huon pine, and has some celery top and some unidentified eucalypt in her as well. The boat was rowed for at least 80 years, maybe 100. Now that's some good timber![/quote]

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:14 am

Rick - the scientifiic data (if you believe it) tells us that King Billy is somewhere between Western Red Cedar and Engelmann in a lot of it's properties.

I certainly treat it like WRC.

Having said that there is a lot of variation as with any wood.

Seeing as tough it's protected nowadays the only source we have is that dragged from the forest floor and occasionally Forestry will delve out permits to pull it out of lakes when the levels drop.

I've started grabbing boards that'll make 3 or 4 piece tops as I don't think you'll see a lot more quality timber for 2 piece. It's certainly getting harder to find.

The other problem I find with it is that it mostly becomes available in sawn form so there is generally a problem with runout. I think this may also contribute to the percieved lack of lengthways stiffness and strength in the wood.

I'd love to get hold of a round of it and split it myself.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:55 pm

Bob, I know what your saying about runout with King Billy but I do have King Billy without runout perfectly on the quarter just waiting for it to finish drying. trouble with logs from forestry as you say old logs dragged out of the bush you do not recover much good timber.
The only way is to get fresh logs and mill yourself or get some one to mill it who knows what there doing, or as you say split it yourself from the round, this would cost you an arm and a leg.
Cheers Bob.

bob wrote:Rick - the scientifiic data (if you believe it) tells us that King Billy is somewhere between Western Red Cedar and Engelmann in a lot of it's properties.

I certainly treat it like WRC.

Having said that there is a lot of variation as with any wood.

Seeing as tough it's protected nowadays the only source we have is that dragged from the forest floor and occasionally Forestry will delve out permits to pull it out of lakes when the levels drop.

I've started grabbing boards that'll make 3 or 4 piece tops as I don't think you'll see a lot more quality timber for 2 piece. It's certainly getting harder to find.

The other problem I find with it is that it mostly becomes available in sawn form so there is generally a problem with runout. I think this may also contribute to the percieved lack of lengthways stiffness and strength in the wood.

I'd love to get hold of a round of it and split it myself.

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:15 pm

Bob y Bob (that's kind of Spanish...), I'd agree re. King Billy being somewhere between Engelmann and WRC. At least the stuff I've seen is like that. Middleton, TAS boat builder Ned Trewartha has shown me some incredibly nice King Billy that he's got stashed away and that finds its way into boats...or ukes...that he builds. With that top-drawer stuff, I'd rate it up there with the finest top woods in the world. It's really too bad that the timber management in Tasmania has been what it's been. You have/had some of the best timbers in the word for certain purposes, and now they're regarded as being in the way of efficient production of toilet paper...

I'm doing a lot of research for this boat-building article I'm working on, and it's heartbreaking to me that the Tassie forests weren't replanted in poly-culture as they were being cut. Not that we've done any better here in the 'States...or than they're doing in Brazil, Madagascar, or anywhere else.

I'm just in a place where I think, "Cut one tree, plant two..." Ours can be truly a self-sustaining resource if we just don't f... it up...

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:47 pm

Bob v Bob, Well you can call me little Bob, & call the other Bob big Bob.
As for Forestry management here in Tasmania as you say its the same all over the world, its all about getting quick money for greedy large companys, I have been on Forestry back on and off for over 40 years and things have got better than they used to be, but it might be too late for some species. and in the North West of Tasmanian we even have a tone wood supplier that buys logs that are taken out of the forest illegally and he admits it.
I have planted 1000s of Rain Forest species over the years. (edited by forum admin) I hope Forestry has a change of attitude.
If you are interested Rick and have the time available I will arrange a meeting with a few of the guys I know well at Forestry Tasmania next time you come over.
Regards Bob

Rick Turner wrote:Bob y Bob (that's kind of Spanish...), I'd agree re. King Billy being somewhere between Engelmann and WRC. At least the stuff I've seen is like that. Middleton, TAS boat builder Ned Trewartha has shown me some incredibly nice King Billy that he's got stashed away and that finds its way into boats...or ukes...that he builds. With that top-drawer stuff, I'd rate it up there with the finest top woods in the world. It's really too bad that the timber management in Tasmania has been what it's been. You have/had some of the best timbers in the word for certain purposes, and now they're regarded as being in the way of efficient production of toilet paper...

I'm doing a lot of research for this boat-building article I'm working on, and it's heartbreaking to me that the Tassie forests weren't replanted in poly-culture as they were being cut. Not that we've done any better here in the 'States...or than they're doing in Brazil, Madagascar, or anywhere else.

I'm just in a place where I think, "Cut one tree, plant two..." Ours can be truly a self-sustaining resource if we just don't f... it up...

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:29 pm

Not much you can do about forestry management with King Billy.

Those trees that we're using now are well over 1000 years old and the country was only invaded by the white man in 1788.

King Billy has been ravaged by bushfires, does not re-generate well and as mentioned grows only about 1mm per year.

It's also wholly protected now so you are not supposed to be harvesting live trees.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:42 pm

Big Bob,
Back in the late sixtys I worked underground in the mines in Queenstown and at the weekends I used to come down to Hobart and party and get wasted, When they wre working on the Lyall highway I seen mountains of King Billy pushed up into piles and then burnt. Its not till some thing is rare before people realize its true value.
Little Bob

bob wrote:Not much you can do about forestry management with King Billy.

Those trees that we're using now are well over 1000 years old and the country was only invaded by the white man in 1788.

King Billy has been ravaged by bushfires, does not re-generate well and as mentioned grows only about 1mm per year.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:46 pm

There Not live now big Bob, They came down in High winds.
Cheers Little Bob

It's also wholly protected now so you are not supposed to be harvesting live trees.[/quote]

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:03 pm

Indeed Bob

I know of HEC roads that have Huon Pine under them for drainage.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:11 pm

Bob, on the Lyell Hwy between New Norfolk and Granton there is a swampy part there, that they put mountains of Tea tree under the Road.
We can not undo the past but we can try and change the future use of good quality timber, you sell tone wood put the price up.
Regards Bob.

bob wrote:Indeed Bob

I know of HEC roads that have Huon Pine under them for drainage.

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:38 pm

Well here we go, I am not a luthier but I am going to build a few instruments over time.
(edited by forum admin) I would like to build a OM steel string with an all blackwood set Soundboard also will this work.?
also blackwood classical with some other top would King Billy work or Celery Top.?
Any suggestion welcome.
Regards
Bob

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:05 pm

Bob,

I will remind you of ANZLF policy clearly explained to you in the past regarding a commercial enterprise which does not have 'preferred vendor' status promoting their business activities on this forum. Please keep all reference to your commercial interest out of your post at the ANZLF and remain focused only upon the topic of stringed instrument construction in this area.

No arguments this time please Bob, we have been through that and you know the terms.

Regards

Kim (Administrator)

Tigermyrtle · Post by **Tigermyrtle** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:28 pm

As we like to say here in Australia Kim,
No bloody worries.
(edited by forum admin)
All i am asking very politcally is for suggestions on what members in this forum would recommend for a sound board for the question I posted.
(edited by forum admin)
Cheers Bob

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:07 pm

I have cleaned up this thread to comply with ANZLF policy.

Cheers

Kim

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:17 pm

Each piece of blackwood needs to be judged on it's own merits. No wild grain for the top, and thinned and braced appropriately for the desired size of the instrument etc. It's not going to sound like spruce, or cedar, but that's ok. I've heard an all Koa 000 and as Blackwood is a very close cousin to Koa. the results should be well within the scope of what a guitar should sound like.

Haven't built a classical yet, and haven't used either of the other tops even for a steel string, so don't have a clue.

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