Aussie equivalent for Alder?

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:33 pm

I don't know how much of you guys know about alder since your all mainly acoustic guitar builders.

Alder is one of the most common woods used for electric guitar bodies and I was wondering if we had an equivalent or similar wood to it here in Australia to save me from buying a big chunk of wood from over in the US and paying loads of money for shipping.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:33 pm

Cameron, Alder is considered a weed wood and used for firewood where I come from. No one would pay you more than the going rate for a chord of wood for it. When I left Canada it was $50 a cord. That's 4' X 4' X 8'.

It's also quite similar to the type of maple that we have growing on west cost of BC.

For your local choice I'd suggest Qld. Maple to be a good alternative.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:52 pm

Qld Maple is more like mahogany tonewise though...

When you say where you come from, is that Cairns or Canada?

I also noticed that poplar grows over here and is also a weed wood, does anyone know where I could source that?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:34 pm

Gilet guitars sells Alder blanks. He did used to sell Poplar too but it doesn't appear on his website so maybe an email?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:16 pm

I grew up on the West Coast of Canada in a small town called Powell River. It's 100 miles north of Vancouver, and we looked across at Vancouver Island.

What is referred to as Alder there is the first tree that self seeds in any and all cleared land. It grows prolifically, and gets to be many meters tall in a few years. There after the hight slows but the tree gets more girth. It's wood is creamy white in color and as I said, hard to distinguish from the maple that grows there once you have it in lumber form. Both Alder and Maple species there, while called "soft woods" are fairly hard once dry. Alder when green has so much moisture content, that when it's split (for fire wood

) will shower you with big slashes of water.

Poplar is a wood that I've not had a lot of hands on use with. It tends to grow in drier and colder parts of the country. Not the wet West Coast. It's also considered a weed wood. Grows very tall and very fast. Over there it's used a lot for wind breaks. I've seen stands of it on the far south coast of NSW around Moyura used as wind breaks, as well as up in Cooma.

This is only speculation, but I think that these woods were initially chosen because they were available locally. Very abundant, inexpensive, and quality pieces suitable for instruments aren't a problem to source. It's also not an endagered species. Makes sense for the bottom line in a business model.

As far as sonic properties are concerned in a electric, I'm the first to admit I clueless so happily defer to those who have experience in those matters.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:22 pm

Nick O wrote:Gilet guitars sells Alder blanks. He did used to sell Poplar too but it doesn't appear on his website so maybe an email?

I saw that, but $150 or whatever they are is a ripoff for a body blank.

Basically the story is that I do prefer to use Aussie woods for guitar construction, but I want to make a replica of Tom Morello's Arm the Homeless guitar which has an alder body:

If it wasn't for him and that guitar I wouldn't be either playing or building guitars. The hole reason I know a fair bit about electric guitars is because I've tried to make guitars from parts to get the whole killswitch and heavy rock thing going.

So to pay tribute I guess I want to build a replica that looks and sounds as close as possible to the original.

So, to get back to my original question, does anyone know of any alder or poplar suppliers or where I can get some from anywhere in Aus?

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:51 pm

G'day Cameron,
If you use Qld maple that will get you somewhere between your alder and mahogany in sound. Definitely more sparkle then mahogany.

I've heard a few Telecaster styled guitars made by Ray at Carlton guitars with their bodies made from Myrtle and they sat pretty close to what you're talking about.

Cheers, Stu

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:10 pm

Unlikely Cameron,

As Allen mentioned Alder is not a very highly regarded timber outside of leci guitar circles and even there it is considered a poor cousin to swamp ash by most. It does make for a lightweight body yes, but for that very reason, low density, it has no real market for timber importers to fill. If you don't want to pay freight, and you don't want to pay Gerrad Gilet who has to cover 'his' freight, then i don't know what your going to do if you must have alder.

One trap you should try to avoid is the common mistake of lumping all wood of the same species into one sonic pile because it just does not work like that regardless of what players will tell you. Any wood worker worth his effort will tell you that each board is different to the next. For instrument builders of any kind this is even more so. To say that QLD is tonally similar to Mahogany is just wrong. Which QLD Maple and from where? Did the tree grow with good rain fall, high nutrient soil etc etc which encouraged rapid growth and less density, or was the sample from a more arid micro climate which caused slow growth of greater density. Are we comparing it with Honduras Mahogany, African Mahogany, Cuban Mahogany and what sample of the accepted 100 to 200 kg per m3 are we comparing against? And on it goes.

The truth is that there are cross overs in properties between many species. My advice, find a nice light weight piece of QLD Maple and go with that or cough up the cash and take your chances with getting a bit of Alder with the same properties as the bit used in the original 'arm the homeless' axe, and good luck with that.

Cheers

Kim

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:29 pm

I saw that, but $150 or whatever they are is a ripoff for a body blank.

I think $150 bucks is a fair price for a dirty great lump of wood that has been imported from the States.

Hancocks are selling QLD Maple body blanks for $170!!!

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:35 pm

Kim, thanks for that.

I know about all of the differences in tone between each board/ tree of timber etc.

Tonewoods are fairly different between the electric and acoustic guitar worlds. For the Australian electric guitar builders that I know of, Qld Maple is Australia's substitute for Honduran Mahogany and after seeing their pieces of art and attention to detail I believe them.

You acoustic guitar builders rely a lot more on the woods used than electric guitar builders, because most/ nearly all of the tone in an acoustic comes from the wood whereas in an electric there's the pickups, electronics, effects and amp which all contribute a lot to the tone. Especially in the guitar that I am trying to replicate which has active pickups, which pretty much over take/ rule the tone which comes from the wood, and to my ears I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a plywood and an alder body with actives.

The body doesn't HAVE to be alder. But I would like to know/ feel better (even if I can't hear the difference) if the body was Alder.

My next problem would be though that if I did chose to go with Qld Maple or as Stu mentioned, tas myrtle I would have to handpick the bits of timber to make sure that I'm getting what I want. But I have no where local that sells timber, so I'd have to get it off the net and just hope that I get lucky.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:42 pm

bob wrote:
I saw that, but $150 or whatever they are is a ripoff for a body blank.
I think $150 bucks is a fair price for a dirty great lump of wood that has been imported from the States.

Hancocks are selling QLD Maple body blanks for $170!!!

Possibly, but the one thing I've learnt over the year or so I've been studying guitar building is that once something goes into a store or whatever and gets labeled 'body blank' or 'luthier' the price can double or even triple.

I've got a few quotes from other timber suppliers in Aus who supply billets or planks of timber in body blank sizes. I've got quotes for bits of Qld Maple in body blank sizes for prices of $71.50, $45 and $60 (different places) That is for select grade, kiln dried timber.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:43 pm

There's one other Aussie timber for bodies that slipped my mind in the last post that will get you close and that would be something similar to Tassie oak /mountain ash.
Find something nice and light or chamber the Bajeezus out of it.
Either way it'll give you more top end than most other Aussie Electric build timbers.

You want to buy cheap do you Cameron?
Take note of the workingwithwood shows as they come to your neck of the woods and get there on the first day at the crack of dawn as the show opens and you'll get the pick of the crop. Very cheap timbers indeed for those motivated to spend the money on the entrance ticket.

Cheers, Stu

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:53 pm

I think $170 for QLD Maple is expensive too.

I don't think $150 is expensive for an imported wood

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:00 pm

It's not that I want to buy cheap, more that I don't want to waste my money, especially when I don't got a lot of the stuff

Bob that's probably true, I guess I'm just used to the guys on another forum I frequent who can buy enough alder for a body for under $20 from a lumber yard.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:05 pm

The Qld maple prices on ALS don't add the GST and post until you buy.
$170 becomes closer to $210 in reality.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:11 pm

If you get hold of Tas Myrtle it'll still cost you around $30 a super foot so the price for a 20" x 14" x 1.75" slab will be around $100.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:19 pm

Here's what I've got so far for tas myrtle:
$61.60
$45
$60
$46.85

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:20 pm

Stewmac sell Alder blanks for $88AUD but the postage is $76 which makes it $164.

Probably the same as Gilets with postage.

Why don't you get one of the blokes on the other forum to buy you some from the local lumber yard and send it through to you.

Should end up around $100.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:20 pm

guitarcam wrote:
My next problem would be though that if I did chose to go with Qld Maple or as Stu mentioned, tas myrtle I would have to handpick the bits of timber to make sure that I'm getting what I want. But I have no where local that sells timber, so I'd have to get it off the net and just hope that I get lucky.

So you recon you will stand a better chance getting lucky having some bloke you never met, who is located on the other side of the planet, pick through his stack of alder to send the very best he has to a small order one off customer from 'itdontmatterville justaslongasigotmecash, Austria? Like i said, good luck.

Don't forget Alder is not immune to variations and perhaps now some light may be revealing why one needs to pay what you do to vendors like Gilet. He has a reputation to protect and that cost money. If Gerard receives a load of crap wood, he can't on sell to recover his loss because it will destroy his business name. He just has to take the good with the bad and wear the loss because that is the 'service' his customers are paying for.

Cheers

Kim

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:22 pm

guitarcam wrote:Here's what I've got so far for tas myrtle:
$61.60
$45
$60
$46.85

You are getting much better prices than I get in Tassie then. I'm paying $30 a super.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:26 pm

My understanding of why some luthiers also sell timbers to others through their website is to onsell the stuff that they won't use or won't build with. Call it opportunity grade or not labelled at all, that is how I see it.
Wouldn't you keep the best stuff for your custom built guitars and your build commissions?

Cheers, Stu

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:30 pm

In the part that you quoted I said that, that was for the Australian Woods that you guys recommended. I have not once said anything about getting a 'body blank' from some guy overseas, actually I haven't even said anything about ordering overseas, all I was saying that I am unable to handpick the timber no matter what species (except pine from bunnings)

Bob, I forget to mention, those prices that I've listed are for 200x38mm boards and the price is for lineal meter. It's the same amount of timber, except its longer and less in width. So its for a two piece body, not a one piece.

I've only been getting quotes for woods in those dimensions because the planer/ thickness that I plan on getting is 10" so it'll be impossible to pass a 14" wide block of wood through so instead I just do a longer board of 7" or however much it may be.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:55 pm

guitarcam wrote:In the part that you quoted I said that, that was for the Australian Woods that you guys recommended.

guitarcam wrote:
The body doesn't HAVE to be alder. But I would like to know/ feel better (even if I can't hear the difference) if the body was Alder.

My next problem would be though that if I did chose to go with Qld Maple or as Stu mentioned, tas myrtle I would have to handpick the bits of timber to make sure that I'm getting what I want. But I have no where local that sells timber, so I'd have to get it off the net and just hope that I get lucky.

Maybe had i included the preceding sentence from your post which i have here now, my reply would have made more sense but i am beginning to doubt that. Until 'you' know more about the properties of the wood you need to obtain the desired result your after, there is not much point in you trying to determine what is the best bit in the stack anyhow and that is why Gerard charges what he does. It is not a "ripp off" as you put it Cameron, it is a complete bargain and a great service to people who are starting out and don't want to be thrown to the wolves.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:15 pm

All I said in my post, is that I'd feel better if the body wood was alder. I didn't say anything about buying it from some guy over in the states.

Like you said I need to know exactly what I want, and what properties that bit of wood must have. But whether I know that or not doesn't matter because I have no way of actually hand picking which piece of wood I want anyway.

The rip off term was probably not needed, but like I said I am used to seeing guys from the states getting great bargains and was expecting to get similar prices, which is impossible, the freight itself would probably be triple the price that they pay. Now that you guys have set me straight I can see that it is not a rip off for that certain wood and service. But I, myself see $150 being way to much to pay for a body blank but that is because I am comparing it to the US luthier stores where the wood is naturally grown. I guess its the same as them over in US buying a Tas Blackwood body blank for $150 when I can get it here for $60.

Thanks Kim

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:34 pm

I would not agree that the timber in a solid body is of less importance than pickups, electronics, etc. It's all about how the structure makes the strings vibrate. Pickups, etc. are just a window into the vibration of the strings...and body.

Alder makes for decent Strat bodies, etc. I've used it for some of my Model 1 "Studio series" guitars to be painted solid colors. Yes, Leo chose it as well as "swamp ash" because they were very available...kind of the way Martin chose Adirondack spruce as it was what grew closest to Nazareth, PA back in the day. Those choices of convenience turned out to be very lucky accidents, I believe.

The main problem with alder is getting big clear pieces. It tends to be loaded with knots, large and small. I did a production job many years ago making 100 easels out of alder, and our reject rate on pieces was very high. Luckily, we paid very little for the timber, so it worked out. I think my partner and I drilled something like 5,000 holes in three days on the various parts...it was about 50 holes per easel and they had to look perfect.

Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum

Aussie equivalent for Alder?

Aussie equivalent for Alder?

Who is online