Newbie wanting to buy an acoustic/electric

[willcall]

Hi all, I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now and finally joined.
I am wanting/hoping to buy an acoustic electric. I have my eye on a Maton EBG808CLG 'Performer' in left hand version. However, I have always liked the idea of a less commercial guitar made by a small company. I would love to make my own but there are only so many hours in a day.
Does anyone know of a luthier in Oz that makes a similar guitar for a similar price as the Maton.
I'm not after a guitar that is as beautiful as the examples on this forum but I can dream.
Cheers, Will
http://www.maton.com.au/acoustics/performer-series.html

[Allen]

Welcome to the forum Will.

There is very little difference in the amount of work that goes into a really ordinary instrument, and one that has been built to a much higher standard. Not including the fancy trim and inlay

I don't think I'd be out of line by saying that any budding luthier is trying to do a top notch job on every instrument. They wouldn't want to get know for work that didn't measure up.

[kiwigeo]

You want someone to bung you up an average quality guitar for cheaper than Maton can do it?

I can do it but to keep costs down I'll be using pinus radiata for the top and plywood for the body. I wont be able to afford Titebond glue so Ill be using flour and water paste. The finish.....I dont do laquer and a 3 week french polish job is out of the question. Not a problem as Ive got some old paint left over from the last time I did the window frames on my house.

If average quality and moderate price is what you want then go for a factory built guitar.

Cheers Martin

PS welcome to the forum

[Kim]

Hello Will, welcome to the ANZLF

I think Martin is just trying to express that you will only get what you pay for. A Maton is a good factory guitar made using very modern techniques such as CNC routing etc. Maton need to employ this kind of production in order to maintain consistancy and compete in a pretty tight market.

A hand built instrument on the other hand is a completely different animal taking many, many hours and much skill to complete. Once done, in many ways a hand built instrument reflects the builder and will continue to hold a part of them for as long as it remains treasured by someone. No hand builder is ever going to make a guitar to the same price point as a tooled up factory can make their run-of-the-mill model, it just cannot be done. If someone offers to do so you should probably grab ur wallet and run.

If funds are limited to the Maton you have your eye on, my advice is to go buy it and then invest in taking it to a good luthier to set it up properly so it is right for 'you'. This is money really well spent and can make a guitar soo very much more playable than a factory set.

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Yeah what Kim said....

[Dominic]

Pretty harsh guys. From what I can tell, this Maton model sells for around $1800. I am sure there would be more than a few of us who would be happy to get this much for one of our guitars. That would easily cover costs and pay about 27 cents an hour for labour. Way better than the 3.5 cents an hour most of are getting. Not many of us are doing it for the money.

Was it Benedetto? "Everyone wants to be something, No one wants to become something!" (Not sure if he said "grasshopper" after wards)


I suppose I don’t really want people to buy my guitars, my goal is that I just want them to really really want my guitars.

Cheers
Dom

[willcall]

Thanks to some of you for the input. Yes, I am looking at spending around the $1500-$1700 mark.
I didn't mean to offend anyone by suggesting they could make a high quality guitar for less then a Maton. I'm not a nit wit. They would be buying all there materials at a fraction of the price that you guys do.
I was merely hoping to find someone potentially willing to do take on the task.
As for average guality, I'm not meaning the sound/tone the guitar produces, I'm talking about bling or lack there of.

Cheers, Will

[kiwigeo]

Will, a couple of points:

1. Nobody is calling you a nitwit. Some of us in here talk plain talk and tell it like it is. Im currently working out on an oil rig and havent had much sleep over the last few days so my temperament is probably not as good as it usually is. Be aware that there are some on this forum who come accros as abrasive and sometimes cranky but they are actually very knowledgable people who offer up their expertise and advice willingly.

2. Nobody in here is offended by your post.

3. Maton cut their costs by bulk buying materials but they also cut costs by reducing the amount of time it takes to build a guitar. They accomplish this mainly by using multimillion dollar CNC machinery (this is what saved the company when it nearly went under) and batch production techniques. Not all of their employees are trained or self taught luthiers so there's another reduction in labour costs.

4. I have a bit of trouble working out exactly what you want. Why not just say that you want a hand made guitar that will cost you $1500-$1700 and you want it to look like the Maton you mentioned in your first post?

5. As a rough guide to costing I spend about 200 hours on one of my guitars (no fancy inlay work) and materials usually cost me about $500-600 dollars. For a $1700 price I'd be charging $6.00 an hour for my labour. Not an issue for me as I dont build to make money but for a luthier trying to make a living it would be a big issue.

6. Personally I think for $1700 someone probably would make you a guitar you were happy with. It might not be as flashy looking as the Maton but it will be an instrument that has been created by one person right through the construction process and that person will be able to cater the instrument to your requirements.

Good luck with your search and do stick around on the forum

Cheers Martin

[Allen]

Martin has made some really good points Will. My instruments take 140 - 180 hours as an estimate. Never logged every second that goes into one, as I don't need, nor intend for this to be my sole source of income. Most of us do this simply because we love everything about the process.

However, to be fair in pricing our work besides what we want to put in our pockets as an hourly salary, there is the very real costs of buying and maintaing some very specialised tooling and equipment. And lets not forget the consumables, and the pieces that break or wear out.

The cost of the materials is really a small portion of the real cost of an instrument. I can and have built guitars that had real material costs to me of only $200 AUD but most are in the $400 - $500 range. Really not much difference in material cost, and absolutely no difference in the labor cost to get it into an instrument form.

Every guitar is going to need a rosette, bindings, bracing, frets, etc. They require a finish that takes a considerable amount of time and skill to apply.

Speaking for myself, there is almost no difference in my time, or real costs of building something very plain, or something with some bling excluding inlay. Each has its place, and appeal to a certain type of person.

[Rick Turner]

Why not buy a reasonable used guitar that you like and have a good pickup put into it?

One of the problems with lo-balling a luthier is that he or she will wind up resenting having taken on the job as the build time stretches out and the dollars per hour drop below minimum wage. You'll wind up with a poorer guitar than you could have gotten by going with a name brand like Maton or Yamaha.

And I'm not clear why you seem to want a "luthier-built" guitar? Are you after cheap bling or a playable instrument for a decent price? For your budget, you can get a pretty nice factory made guitar...one that's likely to be better than you could get from a luthier for the same money.

Go with a second hand guitar and leave enough in your budget for a good luthier setup.

[HiString]

Will,

Some good advice given here, if I was looking for a LH acoustic/elec, I think I'd be watching this very carefully http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Gibson-songwrite ... 20adc61279

[Paul B]

Yep, second hand guitar with a good setup by someone who knows what they're doing.

A guitar is only as good as it's setup to be.

[Rick Turner]

One other thing. It's not all that big a deal to convert a guitar from right handed to left. All that needs doing is to fill the saddle slot with the appropriate wood, well fitted and glued, and then rout a new slot at the proper angle for leftie intonation and make a new saddle. Here in the 'States that might run $125.00 to no more than $150.00, and it wouldn't be much more work to install a pickup at the same time. That opens up the full range of all guitars to you. And the full range of pickup systems. And I won't plug my stuff here!

[Bob Connor]

Rick

If you want to push your line of pickups here go right ahead.

I'm sure the members would like to have information about them from the horses mouth.

A list of where we can get them in Australia would be good as well.

[Nick]

I'm sure the members would like to have information about them from the horses mouth.

A list of where we can get them in Australia would be good as well.

Sorry Bob... couldn't help meself

[kiwigeo]

Good one Nick.

Hey I see theres snow to low levels forecast for Canterbury. Should I be bringing my thermal underwear over with me?

[Bob Connor]

Dominant are the wholesalers Nick.

Maybe we can get the lowdown on some retail stores that sell them given that most of us wouldn't be buying that many

[Nick]

Good one Nick.

Hey I see theres snow to low levels forecast for Canterbury. Should I be bringing my thermal underwear over with me?

Might pay to , bloody weather's all over the show at the moment, bright sunshine this morning, Gawwwwgeous...this arvo cloudy and cold! Predicting rain tomorrow & now you been 'softened' up by Australian temps it could be a tad cold for you.

[willcall]

Thanks for all the good advice guys.

I've been checking ebay daily, I don't know how that Gibson got past me.

Yes, I have been seriously considering a Maton Performer, I think if I had my choice of Factory guitars that would be the one. I have a thing for buying local and love the idea of local timbers.
My brother in law just bought one aswell so I am keen to try it out tonight.

There is a 1970 MAton 80w/6(?) on ebay for $1400 with case in LH but with RH pickguard stuck on aswell. Good, Bad???

I guess by saying "Luthier made" i really mean "well made". I am much more interested in a great sound then a great look. Having said that, there are so many sexy guitars on this forum it makes my mouth water.

My goal is not to rip off a luthier on this forum for a top quality guitar. I was only thinking you guys must love the work and would be keen for another excuse to pick up the tools.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for a used Maton or like.

Will

[HiString]

Will,

I'd be wary of that LH Maton.........the seller says he's changed it to RH but makes no mention of what has been done to the nut slots, the p/up system is old and could be problematic. Personally, I feel that the prices being asked for these older Matons are too much, you can buy a much newer and usually better Maton for not many more $$$.

My oldest Maton is a late '50's (cheap) archtop I learnt on around '62, I have a '69 CW80/12 serial #275 purchased new and a '96 ECW80C/6, not to mention my son's Matons............let me assure you that the later guitars are generally of better all round quality.

[Rick Turner]

There must be some decent Yamahas floating around.

I, of course, forgot about the need to cut a new leftie string nut, but that would add a bit to the conversion cost. Still, a decent used guitar with a conversion might be less expensive than holding out for that rare leftie.

And Bob and admin folks; my general policy with regard to flogging my own gear on forums is not to unless there are legitimate questions about what I do, make, invent, etc. I've seen too many (not here, by the way) use forums as nothing but blatant self-promotion platforms and not put anything of value into discussions, particularly threads that don't relate to their gear. I try to put in at least as much as I might possibly get back from forums. So, happy to discuss, but only in legitimate context. When and if I can afford to be more of a sponsor, then that might be a different matter.

[willcall]

Thanks Histring,
Thanks for the insight into Maton construction quality.
I tried out my brothers Maton 225C last night. Had a great sound even in RH configuration. I currently have 3 acoustics but the only one I could compare it to is my Samick SW210S/LH. It is about a 1993 model and needs a very good set up job perormed as the strings sit a mile away from the neck up around the 14th fret. The other 2 are as follows: 1 3/4 size kids nylon string around 1960 and 1x Yamaha nylon string around 1985.
Not much of a comparison for the Maton but it certainly impressed me.

Will

[Antipode]

Hi Will
if it's bragging rights on a name you want then you need to buy a name. If it's a decent guitar at a very reasonable price why go past the likes of a Greg Bennett. Test drive a few, pay $500 odd for the one you like best, and have a grand left in your kick for any additional setup and a few beers.

[kiwigeo]

Maton a bit more expensive than GB but might as well keep a few Australians in a job


From Wiki:

Greg Bennett Guitars are produced by Samick Music Corporation.

After 40 years of producing guitars, Korean musical instruments manufacturer Samick hired industry veteran Greg Bennett to give their guitar line a radical makeover, with the goal of improving appearance, sound quality, and build quality.

[Antipode]

Yep and the makeover seems to have worked.
Have seen some nice ones lately. Lower priced ones were made in Indonesia and higher in China. Couldn't tell a workmanship difference between them.
The Eden Plains took my fancy. All had "ash" for sides and back - reckon it's probably eucalyptus type ash from Aussie - nice quality all around but slightly higher specs for electric side on Chinese.
Have a Greg Bennett F-style mando I paid $450 (new) for and an acoustic electric A-style (also new) that cost $180. Both fine implements.
Frankly if I could build to that sort of quality for three times the price tag they had on them I would be a happy critter.