another introduction (and bonus tonewood question)

[mqbernardo]

Hi all! My name is Miguel and I am rather new to this forum (one previous post). I come from the other side of the planet (Portugal - how did i end up here?), and i am - for some time now - building my 1st instrument: a romanillos classical copy. This seems like a relaxed and laid back place, i hope to drop by in the future for some tips. For now, i think i´ll spend some time in the tutorial and jigs forums.

Meanwhile i have a question for you guys: i just came across an Australian tonewood vendor that sells bunya pine for tops, which i did not know could be used. Here in my place there are lots of araucarias, but from different species (mainly the Norfolk Island pine - A. Heterophylia). My question is twofold: how is Bunya pine as a tonewood? and, has anyone used Norfolk Island Pine for building? if so, what are your opinions on it?

thanks in advance,
Miguel.

[H3ytm@n]

This is from the Maton Guitar Website http://www.maton.com.au:

Bunya

Bunya
( araucaria bidwilli )

The Bunya Feast was a regular gathering of indigenous people from around the Bunya Mountains in Southern Queensland. They would gather to feast on the ripe nuts from the Bunya tree and to sing, dance and celebrate.
The Bunya tree also yeilds an outstanding soundboard timber - probably the best Australia has to offer.
Maton pioneered the use of this tonewood in the mid 1990's and have made some of our finest guitars from Bunya.
Bunya has an earthy, wild, evocative tone, a change from the conventional - but with the volume, tone and beauty to stand up in its own right. Bunya is also a sustainable guitar making soundboard, reaching maturity in 80 years. Compare that to the 300 plus years it takes to grow Spruce.

[stopper]

I am also interested in the performance of these timbers. I have cut bunya and hoop and just this week learned of a large norfolk island pine log to be sawn up. After searching other threads it seems that provided the grain is tight, straight and uniform it should be suitable but it would be good to hear from anyone who has tried them and knows how they really sound.

cheers
steve

[Cookie man]

Hi!

I'm new as well, but I've been doing quite a lot of research on different tonewoods, and I'm fascinated by the number of species we have here in australia that can be used for instruments.

Maton does use bunya, but another company, Cole clark (whose CEO is an ex-maton employee I believe) uses bunya extensively on their acoustics.

Here is a youtube video of Jack Johnson with a Cole clark 'fat lady 2' with a solid bunya top.
The pick up in the guitar is specially patented by the company, it sits on one of the main soundboard braces so that what you are hearing from the amplifier is more or less a perfect demonstration of what you would hear when the guitar is unplugged.

[joolstacho]

Personal experience leads me to the conclusion that Bunya may work, but is rather bland in it's sound characteristics. Cole Clark bunya soundboards don't have conventional bracing, they CNC machine integral bracing into the top, which muddies the waters a bit when it comes to comparision with say, a spruce top with conventional bracing. I recently had a customer bring an expensive Cole Clarke in for a setup, and I was quite disappointed with the sound of it. My dreadnaught blew it into the weeds, but that's not to say that mine it that brilliant, just that I think maybe the Cole Clarks and Matons are a bit over-rated.
The Bunya I've used had rather 'waxy' characteristics, not that sharp crispness that you asssociate with good resonance.
Might be a bit unconventional, but Blackwood can make a great sounding board. -got to be thinner than spruce, with appropriate bracing, but it's got quite a special sound, how well it stands up structurally long-term is another matter though.

[Cookie man]

Hmm I see your point, but that was just a rough example; I know that there are much better guitars, and hand built ones are almost always gonna sound better that mass produced factory ones. But I still think bunya has a fair bit of potential if you ignore the bracing factor.
I've read plenty of reviews on cole clarks and others, and people usually say that their acoustics are very good value for money, but on the high end of guitar price ranges there are many better alternatives.

[mqbernardo]

well, thanks for the replies| i thought that this thread had bitten the dust already... i think i´ll keep going with spruce for now, better to save the more exotic stuff for later.

cheers,
miguel.

[MBP]

In the luthier world bunya is hardly exotic.

Personally I think a guitar must do two thing, sound good and look good.
Bunya is bad looking and worse sounding from the guitars I have heard.

To me cole clarks sound terrible unplugged but okay plugged in.
I much prefer a sound hole pickup, the L.R. Baggs active is a great one, better than the fishman IMO but more expensive as well.
The LR baggs also looks nicer.

Spruce is cheaper and sounds better IMO.
I know a luthier with some (enough for 30+ guitars) king billy with around 50+ growth lines per inch and he wont use any more of it.

[Daniel_M]

I have to disagree. I like the sound of Bunya. Yes it does sounds different and many people have referred to it as having a fundamental tone – that is, without the complexities and overtones of other sound board materials.

Does it sound like spruce? Nope. Does it sound like Cedar? Nope. It sounds like Bunya.

In reference to the claim that Matons and CC are overrated – compared to what? For what? I love the Maton sound – perhaps because I love the Tommy Emmanuel sound and off course his playing. If I am after this sound, then Martin, Larivee, Taylor are overrated. On this basis, my more expensive acoustics will sit in the case when I am playing Tommy Emmanuel or Michael Fix covers. But then my Maton will sit in the case when I am playing acoustic blues – Bunya will get a run given the ‘fundamental’ tone.

Hand built v. factory built. I have seen some really bad hand built guitars from ‘leading’ Australian Luthiers – no, I will not mention names. Then, Taylors are considered great and are built by robots (an exaggeration).

For reference the CC I have seen have very rough CNC work on the tops with the bracing looking like two big x’s running the length of the top.

On that, it makes you wonder how much a difference it all makes when you hear something like a rainsong – no bracing, carbon fibre top.

All personal preference guys

On other things, I would happily purchase the 30+ King Billy tops if he is looking at selling them.

[kiwigeo]

Yes personal choice to a large degree but Bunya just doesnt light my fire. When I pick up one of Shanes Lutz tops however its a different story....I just love lutz!!

[Cookie man]

Thanks Dan, i was thinking along the same lines, just not sure how to say it. Cheers for your voice of reason in this discussion.

[MBP]

Daniel M,

I agree with most of what you are saying, just not the maton tone thing.
All the matons I have heard sound different, there is no set tone. A lot of them dont have tone at all and sound crap some sound fantastic.

Also for build quality matons are over priced. The finish is terrible as well. But people buy them because tommy plays one. He also plays a heap of others and his matons wont be made the same as the ones in the shops. He is also payed to play them

[Daniel_M]

many would agree that maton has a distinctive tone. Some would say it is a function of them being heavily built or over braced. perhaps the same way people refer to the gibson tone, martin tone, taylor tone etc...

To say some don't have a tone at all is a relatively silly statement; of course they have a 'tone' it may be just one that you do not prefer. Unless of course, they are perfectly inert.

As for price, they are priced well. That is, if they were overpriced people wouldn't buy them and they would be forced from the market. Therefore people view the price as reasonable. You may think that they are overpriced and do not purchase one - which is all part of the market system. And is completely fine. But from a company perspective, they are probably as strong now as they have ever been.

As for the TE models they are made in the same factory and are as far as I am aware are the guitars that he plays - they also start at 3k. He also records with some taylors, larivees etc.

Of course he is paid to play them - but has had significantly larger offers from other companies -taylor for one. I can find the article if you are interested.

Probably best to agree to disagree. .

[jeffhigh]

We are probably also facing the stage vs studio situation.
Tommy's stage guitars probably sound crappy unplugged but give him the sound he wants and the feedback resistance he needs on stage at high volumes.

[Daniel_M]

You are completely right Jeff; the 808's that he uses are notoriously known to sound small unplugged but sound huge plugged in using the APmic system. So small in fact that Tommy calls his 'mouse'. He often holds master classes and is quite happy for people to play his guitars.

I didn't mean to be short - just trying to get away from value judgements along the lines of brand x is not good or tonewood y is bad. Perhaps they are not bad/good just less preferred or different.

[mqbernardo]

In the luthier world bunya is hardly exotic.

well, it is very exotic where i come from, heck, even cedar is rarely used here! ...

[Kim]

I have played a few Bunya top Matons and have been really impressed by most of them, plenty of punch and a good over all tone. I have not built with Bunya but feel it is a fine tonewood and in the right hands could make a wonderful sounding guitar. As mentioned the Cole Clarks are not really the type of instrument that you can make a comparison to any flat top with. It is not that they are bad guitars, its just that they are different. Not my cup of tea at all but they are all that and more to some and to each his own...I even know one bloke who really likes his ovation

Cheers

Kim

[ozwood]

On other things, I would happily purchase the 30+ King Billy tops if he is looking at selling them.

Dan, Don't be Greedy 15 each is fair .

I'll build OOO's and OM's with King Billy forever if I can get my hands on some nice Stuff, Cause my King Billy /Blackwood OOO sounds great , not Just My Opinion , everyone who's played it agrees.

But we'll keep it as our secret Dan , anyone else with King billy they Don't want, Dan And I will releive you of It.

Cheers

[MBP]

Of course all I have written is my own opinion, that is plain obvious.

As far as I know TE does not actually play a TE model, he may at times but not the go to guitar.
He also has custom luthier made guitars. I know of one guitarist who was payed to play a certain brand but used something else for recording as he thought it sounded better.

I still think maton are overpriced. People buy them because they simply dont know. Or because tommy plays one etc etc.
An equivalent guitar from a luthier would be much cheaper.

He wont be giving away the king billy, tassie tonewoods sells much lesser quality for more than master european spruce.

I do think that matons sound okay plugged in but I reckon they could sound so much better

[charangohabsburg]

Of course all I have written is my own opinion, that is plain obvious.

Actually, no-tone guitars sound just the same as a piano...


youtu.be/

If this is true I must have one.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Nick]

That's the composer's finest piece Markus but the Pianist didn't do it justice at all! Rushed the middle section and didn't articulate the tricky ending at all well! Should have been played with more passion, I felt, too but voiced the perfect example of just what no tone sounds like.

[kiwigeo]

This guy is Swiss????

[Daniel_M]

As far as I know TE does not actually play a TE model, he may at times but not the go to guitar.
He also has custom luthier made guitars. I know of one guitarist who was payed to play a certain brand but used something else for recording as he thought it sounded better.

He does play them check out various youtube clips of concerts and masterclasses, I can't remember seeing him play anything else (they have CGP inlay on the 12th fret) and his album covers for his listing of guitars played on the tracks (some are maton, martin, taylor etc...). I wouldn't doubt that he has small shop luthier made guitars. I guess the custom shop Maton luthiers would have also made guitars for him as well (?). You are right many guys are paid to play or endorse a guitar and often record with something else - or even indeed play live with something else.

People buy them because they simply dont know. Or because tommy plays one etc etc.

What don't they know? that they don't really like them - that is the point, that they do like them! No one is forcing them to buy them! they can select something else from the market - they purchase them because they know they want them. If people purchase them because they are fans of TE or whoever, that is great - that is exactly what endorsements are set up to do - sell guitars. To me, dropping $3K on a maton is not a big deal because I am at that stage in my life were I have the funds available to do so. I purchased a Fender tele not because it was an amazingly great guitar (it is actually difficult to play) - just because I wanted a particular colour combo. I have played in maybe 3 or 4 times and has sat in the case for the last 18 months. Does this mean 'I don't know'? No, it just means that maybe my motivation is different to yours.

An equivalent guitar from a luthier would be much cheaper.

I think that the Maton 808's start at $1699 RRP and the TE model is $2,999 but they are advertised for $2,399 you could probably get one for $2,200. I would doubt that anyone on this forum would be able to build a comparable instrument with electronics and a hard case for the price - if under commercial circumstances. There are two guitars being built side by side in the workshop at the moment. One out of 'cheap wood' - bunya top, queensland maple neck, sheoak back and sides, ebony fingerboard and bridge whilst the other is all master grade stuff - the best of everything. The difference in the cost of the wood isn't massive. The vast majority of the cost is labour. The master grade guitar has been sold and has a value of approximately $4,000k. The price of the 'inferior' guitar is in the same ballpark due to the proportion of labour costs. Given the hours, and the components, I find it difficult to believe that someone would take the job on for $2 odd grand. The case = $150, electronics = $250 (dual source), wood = $400, tuning machines = $80 (all rough calcs). You would be looking at close to $900 before you even started working with wood. Then you have the finishing costs, frets, etc...it adds up really fast. Lets say that a luthier spend 80 hours on a guitar....this is were it might get depressing for some of the guys..........but you can work out the hourly rate.

He wont be giving away the king billy, tassie tonewoods sells much lesser quality for more than master european spruce.

no one said anything about giving it away. I find TT expensive as well. Which is why I don't purchase anything from them. Mr Spittle is far, far more reasonable and why I purchase Aussie stuff from him.


Mate, the point is, value judgements of 'this is crap' is not helpful (and gets my back up). Stating that king billy is no good or bunya is poor or maton's have no tone, doesn't help anyone. It also discounts the great results that guys on this very forum have gotten with these woods or reveals a lack of maturity. I am reminded about a response I got when I asked about Celery Top pine - I wanted to build an OM from it. I think it was Bob who replied that guys have not had good results from it. He didn't say it was crap - just that there have been reports of unfavorable results. It was an almost sage-like response.

[MBP]

I said a simmer guitar. The wood for a Marin does not cost $400 and you can see that they don't spend time sanding or finishing their guitars.

I will reply in detail later but am on the phone and have big fingers which makes it hard.

Most people that bring their matin to be fixed think they are the best guitar in the world, they simply don't know that the can get a more reliable better finished guitar for similar price.

I don understand why a luthier would be buying a fender???

[Daniel_M]

Oh I agree maton are not paying that but for a luthier to build something similar it was a rough estimate. But if you add it up, Tim has solid qld maple back and sides for $115 add 20 for shipping, let's say 100 for a AAA top including shipping, $40 for a bridge and fingerboard (maybe a little more), rosette $20, binding $20, qld maple for the neck maybe $40 then you have bracing $20, head plate $10, kurfing, truss rod, inlays etc... It was just a rough number but gets us in the ball park. And yes I have qld maple that I paid much less for but I would price it what it is worth in the market rather than what I paid for it.

I purchased the tele simply because I wanted a fender in butterscotch, white pickguard and maple fingerboard. It didn't play particularly well and I did a fret redress, but that is ok cause I just wanted one. I have a tele that I made recently with pickups that were wound in-house and in terms of time and materials the fender was a lot cheaper as well. Neither get played. Electrics, ha ha ha ha.

yep, people fall in love with guitars for all sorts of reasons. I love a seagull I bought a couple of years ago. By others measures it may be considered inferior. And man it took some work, refinished to a lighter nitro top, a neck rest, fret dress. But I love the thing.