Desktop CNC Router

[Graham Long]

Hi,
I've been looking into getting a small desk top CNC router for doing bridges, fretboards etc.
Can anyone give some advice?
Cheers
Graham

[simso]

Desktop is too small. A cnc router is an invaluable tool in my opinion. But no good for cutting fretslots. Great for making templates

[simso]

This is my one,

I made it myself

[peter.coombe]

That is a big question. The answer will depend on what you want to do with the machine, your budget and whether you want turn key, or are prepared to pick up the soldering iron.

I have just been through the process of researching and choosing a CNC and ended up ordering a XZero from Canada. It should be here in about 3 months. There is not a lot available in Australia that is useful (i.e. good quality and reliable) and affordable. You can buy Chinese machines off ebay or there is the CNC Shark from Carbatec, or industrial quality machines such as Multicam. The Chinese machines are cheap and have issues, but some people have been able to modifiy them and make them into useful machines, but you need to know what you are doing and be prepared to risk your cash for a potential lemon. The CNC Shark pro+ is turn key, supported in Australia, but is a light duty machine and costs around $6000. Use it within it's capabilities and you should be fine. With tools I always tend to buy the best quality, but with CNC routers that can get you into serious financial trouble. I did contact Multicam who make a smallish CNC router, but the quote was around $36,000, and the machine weighs around 400Kg! The Multicam salesman was very persistant and tried to persuade me to set myself up to make parts for other people so I could pay for the machine, or to lease it. Do I want to do that - NO! It is an industrial quality machine, made here in Australia, but way over the top for what I need so quickly forgot that idea. Our American colleagues are very lucky in that there a number of small US companies making small desktop CNC machines that are reasonably good quality - e.g. Shopbot, Romaxx, Stinger. K2. We don't have that sort of thing here in Australia. The problem is the shipping weight is at least 90kg and from the USA has to be sent by air so the shipping costs are a killer, plus you then need to pay GST on top of the shipping costs. Many of our American colleagues have a Shopbot, and the Shopbot desktop was on the top of my list at one stage until I calculated the total cost. It looks good at about $5000 USD because it is a complete turnkey solution, but after adding the spindle (the router is 120V only), the shipping costs and GST, $5000 USD becomes $9000 AUD.

I bauked at $9000, and was looking at DIY until I came across XZero. XZero is not turnkey, it is a small one man company based in Canada, but they use quality high precision CNC parts made in North America, and Aluminium construction which keeps the shipping weight down. I have ordered the mechanical parts from Canada and have bought the motors and electronics in Australia. That ensures I get local support for the electronics with is the part most likely to break, and it will be 240V 50Hz, but I need to wire it all up and test it myself. Also I won't need to pay shipping costs and import duty on the motors and electronics. Shipping costs are a small fraction of what it costs from the USA because Canada still supports surface mail. It will come in a number of packages to remain under the 20kg limit. The motors and electronics have arrived and a couple of hours reading the manuals and it looks pretty straight foreward to put it all together, but if you have never done something like this before, I don't recommend it. I used to build Hi Fi amplifiers, so is not an issue for me, it just takes time. All in all the total cost (including software) for me is going to be a bit over $4000 AUD. I would struggle to DIY from Chinese parts for that price. I can afford that, and if it all goes pear shaped I won't go bankrupt, plus it is a much stronger machine than the CNC Shark, and also a little bigger. Advice I have been given is to buy bigger than you think you need because in the long run it will be worth it.

As you can see it is not so simple and that is not even mentioning software. You can easily end up spending more on software than the cost of the machine. Once again, cholice of software depends on what you want to do. I am going to get a digital probe so won't need to do a lot of software modeling.

For more information go to the CNC section on luthiersforum.com, cnczone.com and the CNC section on woodworkforums.com

Peter

[kiwigeo]

This is my one,

I made it myself

Im wondering how you get that chuck (at right) to fit onto the router

[peter.coombe]

Desktop is too small. A cnc router is an invaluable tool in my opinion. But no good for cutting fretslots. Great for making templates

Once again it depends on what you want to do with the machine. My machine will be a desk top, 600 x 900mm. Plenty big enough for me. It is possible to cut fret slots by using a number of passes. The main difficulty is to ensure the bit does not break, so the speed of the cut is also important. However, I can't see why you would want to use it to cut fret slots when it is so easy to do with a tabletop saw and template. Maybe cutting the template with the CNC makes a lot more sense.

Peter

[Kim]

A lot of those who offer CNC guitar parts offer fretboards with faux binding, that is a trick you just can't do without CNC because the slots are stop cut to leave the uncut wood on the sides as bindings. It is a slick look because the board being all one piece is understated and classy..great when you want to blend that 'less is more' look across the whole instrument. As I recall from brief reads on slotting via CNC, Pete is on the money, head speed is everything with small diameter bits and that speed is a move away from the capabilities and bang for buck offered by your domestic router and is reflected in set-up cost required to effectively perform that kind of operation....like all other things, you only get what you pay for.

Cheers

Kim

[Allen]

This has been an avenue I've been researching and working on for several years now and it's a huge learning curve.

I've also learnt that as Kim said, you get what you pay for, and you have to come to grips with the trade offs when it comes to accuracy, speed, ease of use and cost.

The other factor that most seem to forget about is the software that is required in many cases is rather expensive to down right take your breath away expensive. And a very steep learning curve as well. You need to know what you want to do with the machine, and your expectations of the finished product before you can really make any informed decisions about the suitability of any of the offerings out there. Be prepared for a reality check and a hit to the bank account if you want to do anything remotely bordering on precision, quality work.

[Kim]

Be prepared for a reality check and a hit to the bank account if you want to do anything remotely bordering on precision, quality work.

That and the software learning curve is what turned me a way when I was looking a while back Allen. Machines have come down in cost considerably since, but, the trade off's remain. Bottom line for me is that even if you remove the financial aspect, I have no interest in investing yet more time sitting in front of a PC to learn the in's, out's, and odities of yet another software suit that is destine to become redundant regardless of how much effort one makes to keep up to speed with the barrage of update reminders that pop up on the desktop when ever you turn on the PC....sometimes I think we can get drawn a little too far from the benefits that technologies are supposed to deliver by what is required just to turn the bloody key.

If you have big time out put of production run components to supply, I can understand the need for the investment of time and money. But if you are small time, even if you were to start selling components to other builders, how much market do people think there is out there for that stuff??? If your justification is in the main to supply components for your own use, how many bridges do you think you could knock out in that same amount of time it would take to do all the required R&D, set up a machine and get the bugs out, work out which one of the so many you will commit to and then learn the required CAD program, run the thing through test after test to make components that just didn't cut it, before you would finally find yourself in a position where you could simply lock in some wood, hit the go button and see a bridge form in front of your eyes that you would be really happy with??

The big question is 'then' what?? So you now you have beaten the beast. You have won the challenge and have successfully handed all the fun stuff to a noisy, expensive, high maintenance machine that now occupies the only bit of floor space you had left in the shed where you could pull up a chair and have a beer and a jam with ur mates...To each his own I suppose but it does make me wonder what the point would be for a builder. I do understand how cool it would be to knock out a stack of perfectly cut inlays and routed headplates, but what do you do when the cupboard is full of the buggers and you've swept the floor?

Cheers

Kim

[simso]

The unit mentioned by pete at carbatec, Im pretty sure is made in house there by joe. I could be wrong. Can ask joe and find out.

For cutting fretslots, its no good, the side load on the tiny cutter is too much, for those that are commercially using cnc for fretboard cutting, Im positive they are cnc'ing a circular saw blade not a router bit.

I made my cnc many many years ago, great little tool, but its just another tool, once the fun of automation is over, it just gathers dist. I find it invaluable for making templates for doing freehand work on guitars. In the initial stages of owning one you will make lots of plaques and mirros and stuff like that, good fun...

Software is a biggie.

You have to understand how it works.

First have a picture (program 1)
Then second convert that picture into vectors (lines compuiters can recognise) (program 2)
Convert vectors to toolpaths for the cutters (program 3)
Convert toolpaths to G-Code language the cnc router will use (program 3)
Load G code and away you carve (program 4)

Programs like vetric which run at 1-2000 dollars will allow you to draw the picture in the program and output the final product ready for the cnc router, so its more of an all in one program

[simso]

Im wondering how you get that chuck (at right) to fit onto the router

Ah ha.....

I use to engrave pool cues for mates, hence the rotary table attachment

[Kim]

those that are commercially using cnc for fretboard cutting, Im positive they are cnc'ing a circular saw blade not a router bit.

I am positive that is not the case Steve. I have seen John Watkins work, (use to run a business called CNC Lutherie Parts in USA and produced some immaculate stuff) his fretboards were indeed cut from a single piece of wood with stop routed slots just as I described above. The slot did have a radius, but in the reverse of what could be achieved with a circular saw cut as it mirrored the surface radius of the fretboad to be an even depth as it arced from one side to the other. I recall reading John's description of his process and he used shallow passes at 65000rpm with a high end spindle fitted with twin high psi air jets 'blasting' the cut clean and cooling the bit as it cut. It is a time consuming so the boards reflected that in cost but it really is a class look to see a one piece BRW board with no through slots or joints of any kind.

Cheers

Kim

[simso]

It would be interesting to watch, Ive machined many woods with cnc and thats a very small cut over a very large area.

I actually just out of interest have a couple of machines being custom made for me at the momennt, one of which is a 2.5m by 1.3m cnc unit with an automatic tool changer (8 tools). Will make the one I made "photo above" a toy.

[Allen]

Some of those guys that are cutting blind fret slots on a cnc with a bit are using an air driven spindle at the 90,000 to 100,000 rpm. Big difference in performance over your router or VFD spindles. Also all very expensive for the retrofit as it's not only the spindle that costs, but a compressor that has to be of enough capacity to run the thing continuously. Not to mention the noise factor that will get to the neighbours if not you in short order.

[Clancy]

When you've spent your career as an Automation & Controls Systems engineer, having a cnc in the workshop would be like bringing work home.

[J.F. Custom]

...fretboards with faux binding...

Hmm, you mean like this ?

JFCustom_fretboard.jpg (140.07 KiB) Viewed 24518 times

That was done during my brief month long romance with a CNC Shark Pro Plus.

Three bits - 1/4" roundover created the radius first - you can see the minor machining marks running at 45˚ that were easily removed with a touch of sandpaper. Then a 1.2mm spiral bit for the purfling; then a 0.55mm spiral bit for the blind fret slots. Perfect results on this fairly plain BR rosewood fretboard. Now that was done with a Shark and a laminate trimmer running at 24'000rpm, without any dust collection or air to blow it out - so definitely possible. Aside from blind frets like this, it is also useful for Multiscale builds which can't be done easily by the tablesaw method. Can be done by hand with a jig though.

As to the OP Graham - for me, I think the CNC would be invaluable. However, it is a big expense to put over other equipment and requires careful consideration to justify the purchase.

Jeremy.

[J.F. Custom]

Hi Graham.

Further to your original question...

The Shark Pro Plus is available locally so support and warranty is local; it's turn-key/plug and play with no expert wiring or other setup necessary; comes with software that's not the best, but not the worst by a long shot and is made to be user friendly, if limited. They are that machines pros. However, you are paying a lot for those "conveniences" for a lighter duty basic unit. Though it works well enough when used within its build capability, you can get much better quality for the same/similar or even less money if you are prepared to forego those conveniences to some extent.

If you really need a turn-key/plug and play unit, the Romaxx WD-1 is well made for reasonable money so worthy of specific mention. It is ex USA though so you would have to factor shipping costs (probably about $500), GST on arrival (roughly another $500), potential other unknown import expenses and lack of local support. You would also need to add the expense of whatever software package/s that you require and a router. There are many other brands of small turn-key models available in USA such as Blurry Customs, K2, Shopbot etc, as Peter mentioned above. They do start getting pricey though once you factor in everything you need and add all the other import costs.

I agree with Peter too - if you are up to assembly, setup, wiring etc etc and therefore don't require a plug and play unit, from my research the Canadian Xzero has to be the best design/build for the buck of any unit. What you will get landed here in Australia for the price is far superior to many other options. There is quite a long waiting period on them though, mostly due to demand.

Finally there are cheaper Chinese options but these come with mixed reports and I have no personal experience so it would be up to you to judge that risk.

Hope it helps.

Jeremy.

[simso]

That was done during my brief month long romance with a CNC Shark Pro Plus.

I would not have thought it possible, such a small tip without breaking it. How long did it take from start to finish with setup and changing of all 3 bits

[simso]

If you havent guessed I love cnc, it, to me takes woodwork to the next level, I think totally automating everything is wrong, but using it to lay the ground work for customising is always good

Ive made my own cnc lathe / cnc mill and cnc router. But becuase theres no time any more in life I contracted a company to make the following for me, this is a cnc laser scanner prototype. I take delivery in about 5 weeks

[peter.coombe]

$500 shipping costs from the USA for around 90kg of CNC machine is way off the mark. There is at least one person who has imported a Romaxx WD-1 into Ausralia from the USA, and he reported the the shipping cost to be about $1200 AUD. Apart from that, I agree with Jeremy.

[J.F. Custom]

$500 shipping costs from the USA for around 90kg of CNC machine is way off the mark. There is at least one person who has imported a Romaxx WD-1 into Ausralia from the USA, and he reported the the shipping cost to be about $1200 AUD. Apart from that, I agree with Jeremy.

WOW

There you go. I got a quote from Ron Rogers @ Romaxx about 1 year ago where he suggested approx. US $600 for freight. He said that it fluctuates so he could not give a firm amount until the unit was ready to ship, but previous units sent to Australia were in that ballpark. That was then however and since, going by comments in other threads, shipping has gone up dramatically ex USA over the past year. Could well be over the $1000 now. I know more recent quotes for shipping from other cnc companies were more like $1000 odd, so seems quite likely. Also, I was not factoring any shipping from the port of destination to your door. If you have no way to collect it yourself, you will easily add a couple more hundred to get it out to you.

I would not have thought it possible, such a small tip without breaking it. How long did it take from start to finish with setup and changing of all 3 bits

Now you're testing me - that was over three months ago and I only did four boards in the weeks I had the machine. I think the longest job was the radius machining at maybe about 25 mins? The purfling channel was only about 2 mins and the frets from memory were about 20 mins. So perhaps all told in the realm of a 50-60 mins for the completed board. These are rough estimates though. Also, bear in mind this was a complete CNC newbie doing this - I'm very sure I could have upped the speed in the radius cutting at least (plus used a larger bit), let alone tweaked other aspects too. I think from memory the fret slots themselves were cut in four or five passes each. I did the four boards with the one bit - no breakage and it does not seem to have dulled at all as yet.

Not really suitable for production as these are not production speeds, but for a smaller operation where "numbers off the production line" are not as relevant, It's a viable option. Unlikely also to be as fast as a tablesaw for purely fret cutting, but far more flexible. The CNC will do everything from the radius through to inlays, purfling and slots, without having to reset or move anything - except change the bits. Aside from the aforementioned multiscale cutting, there is also the fact that the tablesaw is limited to scale lengths you have the templates for and templates are only made in "standard" scales. The cnc could be used for simply cutting a new template too, but for one off jobs of non-standard scale lengths, it provides a quick and very accurate way of doing the job. You can check out the Precise Bits website - it has some more details on their micro bits and use in luthiery.

Mind you, all that said, I would not be buying one just to do fret slotting!

Jeremy.

[Gizmo]

for those that are commercially using cnc for fretboard cutting, Im positive they are cnc'ing a circular saw blade not a router bit.

Fender Custom Shop at Corona have a Haas VF4 and cut fret slots with a saw on a right angle aggregate head. The Haas is a metal machine and the spindle has a max rpm of only 10,000. It is possible to mill the slots with a tiny bit as JF has shown, but it will take time to run.

For the original poster, there are many advantages of CNC if you can justify the expense and the learning curve.
You can reduce the number of templates you need, and if the control has macro programming ability you can write programs with variables.
What that means is you can cut a fretboard based on the scale length, so you just put the size variables in at the top of the program and press go. Once you know the program is correct you can do something else while it happens.

If you want to see photos of the Fender setup download this Haas magazine pdf:
http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/PDF/v3i09.pdf
The Fender article starts on page 9 of the pdf.