More progress

[Bob Connor]

In the last couple of weeks I've braced and voice seven tops with the braces being glued on the eighth at the moment.

Very interesting excercise being able to do so many in one hit and being able to compare the tap tones.

The first four were 0-18's, lightly braced and quite thin tops.

A mixture of Adi, Sitka, Euro, Engelmann and King Billy.

Most of them in the 2.4mm-2.5mm range with the lower bout edges thinned down to around 2.2mm-2.3mm.
The one exception was the King Billy which was left at 2.7mm being not as stiff along the grain. Still thinned this one around the perimeter.

The next four are dreadys which was quite a change bracing for a different style of playing. 2 x Adi, Lutz and a Bearclaw Sitka.

The Bearclaw was amazingly stiff and it came from Brent Cole at Alaska Specialty Woods. (Another supplier I can recommend)

Top thickness of these dreadys was around 2.8mm withe the Bearclaw ending up 2.65mm. All had the perimeters thinned to around 2.4mm-2.5mm.

We having been building A lot of OM's this year and the tops have been quite thin ( down to 2.2mm using Engelmann - Stiff Engelmann mind you - the stuff I have at present rivals Adi in the Stiffness department) which have resulted in very responsive instruments.

So this has been a conscious effort to leave the tops a bit thicker and adjust the bracing accordingly.

Anyhow here's some pics. Looks like were going to be doing a lot of binding this week.

Mahogany/bearclaw dred



Lutz Dready Bracing



Blackwood/King Billy





Sassafras/Engelmann



Ziricote/Italian Spruce





Goncalo Alves/Adi



Maple/Sitka



Thanks for looking.

Bob

[James Mc]

Looking good Bob and looking like you have plenty to keep you busy (the thought of installing that many necks all at once is enough to give me the horrors).

As per usual I have a question… In the photos it looks like you have joined the King Billy on the wide grain edge??? Was just wondering if there is a reason for this, as I haven’t ever noticed this done before but have been considering doing so on a classical made with non-traditional timbers.

[Bob Connor]

The billet of King Billy was starting to drift off the quarter on the outer edges James.

Bob

[Serge]

These boxes all look great Bob,keep it up and thanks for the update!

[Allen]

I think your going to be givin' that Sata a workout and getting pretty good at putting a finish on by the time you get to the end of this batch.

What a great opportunity to learn about your building style with that many on the go at one time.

[sebastiaan56]

Nice looking batch of guitars, but I particularly like that blue purfling Bob, contemporary, edgy,

Sebastiaan

[Bob Connor]

Thanks everyone.

The SATA will be getting workout Allen and putting a lot of your tips into practise.

Some of these are getting Ubeaut Hard Shellac but we are thinning it 50/50 with more coats and a slower build.

A couple of our earlier guitars are getting some very fine crazing after about a year which I think is from laying it on too quick and too thick.

Some of them are getting Mirotone purely because we are getting low on the Ubeaut and we have a 5 litre tin of the lacquer plus thinners.

The black/blue/black purfs are really nice but I'm thinking they may be a little too thick with the blackwood strip between them on such a small guitar.

The Ziricote one is getting black/red/black and I think we'll leave that one as a single purfling around the top.

I wouldn't mind getting some of those purfs in the fine rather than bold but yes, they do give it a certain edge on something that is essentially a traditional design.

The little King Billy is my favourite of the lot. It sounds a lot nicer to me when tapping the closed box than the others. However stringing it up will be the ultimate test.

Bob

[Dave White]

Bob (and Dave)

That's a great batch you've got brewing there - it looks like the show activity is kicking in nicely. You've got some lovely looking wood combos and it will be interesting to hear how they all turn out. The King Billy looks interesting. I like the idea of different top woods. I have a Douglas fir one that I want to try soon.

[Hesh1956]

Bob buddy outstanding progress and I really enjoyed see what you guys are up to these days.

Being able to brace and voice multiple tops in the same time frame was what helped me begin to understand what voicing is all about. I bought 3 cheap sitka tops and braced and voiced them all at once as simply learning tools.

Unfortunately with guitar building we really never get the opportunity to hone our skills for a specific operation in as much as unless we are building multiples at the same time not much time is spent on each operation and we have nothing to compare it to.

Your guitars are looking outstanding and the variety is also excellent.

Nice work my friend.

[Rick Turner]

Bob, I'm considering Ubeaut hard shellac as the recommended finish for the mandolins my Hobart students will be building. Does it brush well, too? They'll be doing finish at home.

[Paul B]

Rick, I've not wanted to say anything adverse about hard shellac to date because I'm still trying it out. But...

My second guitar that I sprayed with hard shellac (and the 1st I used hard shellac on) has crazed to the buggery about 10 - 12 months since it was applied. I was sure it went on nice and thin, and, I'm not convinced yet that it isn't my error - in putting it on too thick. But how do you tell? Seems to me to be very thin, sanded through in enough places during leveling that I'm sure it's thin enough.

Anyway, I'm no 100% convinced that you'd want to be getting your students to use it if you're thinking of expanding your operations here and hoping for future growth. Might be a safer option for you to get them to use something tried and true, rather than have your students question your judgment down the track.

Just a heads-up. The idea of your students brushing it on just raised too many alarm bells in my head for me to say nothing.

[Rick Turner]

Thank you.

As I develop this teaching thing down your way I'd like to move into using as many local resources as possible. I'm sensitive to all the issues around that, so I've got an interesting learning curve going on here, to say the least! I am, admittedly spoiled by having so much virtually at my fingertips here. But as I regard Tasmania more and more as a second home (yeah!), I'm going to rely on the experience and expertise of many of you Aussie luthiers to help me along.

Again, thanks...

[sebastiaan56]

Rick,

I have to say Im impressed with Hard Shellac, but I have never sprayed, purely french polish technique, along with just a little 1200 grit and a product called EEE, also by UBeaut. Still only 3 months history. It seems well regarded on the OLF,

[Paul B]

Sorry, that previous post isn't very clear.

I've only built 4 guitars in total. The first I FP'd according to the milburn tutorial using 'proper' shellac or traditional FP methods. The second guitar was sprayed with u-beaut's 'hard shellac'. #3 & #4 have no finish yet. I've only used hard shellac on the second guitar. It doesn't seem to be holding up too well tho.

Others might have different stories...

[Bob Connor]

Rick

I'm with Paul on this and we have had some problems with spraying it.

We used to spray it without thinning (two coats) but the current batch we are trying 50/50 with 100% Methylated Spirit. (what you blokes in the States call denatured alcohol), more coats so a slower build.

We've had problems with the finish on tops crazing slightly and only on a couple of instruments. You can see the grain lines telegraphing through the finish so it is going on thin.

Graham MacDonald had a similar problem a few years back and spoke with Neil Ellis from Ubeaut about it. Neil seemed to think it was applied too thickly.

So the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned but I'm going to persevere with testing it on my own instruments but in the meantime I'm looking for an alternative.

I really like the non-toxic nature of it and the other bloke I work with, Dave, gets nose bleeds if he works with nitro so we're trying to minimise any use of that if possible.

The Hard Shellac certainly works using traditional french polish techniques but I've never brushed it so I'm not sure how it would work.

Ubeaut also sell other shellac products without the cross linking agent and Zinnsers Seal Coat is readily available here.

Maybe french polishing might be the way to go or for something simpler Danish Oil.

I'll certainly be keeping the forum informed of any developments but I concur with Paul on this.

Bob

[Paul B]

Perhaps I should start another thread and ask Neil Ellis to come over and have a chat about what we're (I'm) doing wrong with hard shellac.

I sure don't want to bad mouth his (good) product in public without giving him right of reply. He is a pretty good guy after all. And I didn't want to bring this up at the OLF 'cause that might screw the US market for him, and that would be unfair, and about the only time I'd be taken seriously. Sad but true.

I'll borrow the good digital camera from work tomorrow and start a new thread tomorrow night with pix of my crazy ax. Invite Neil over and see if we can't nut this out....

[Bob Connor]

Neil's in Geelong Paul.

I'll drop in and see him sometime this week and take one of my instruments with me.

Bob

[graham mcdonald]

I should say again that I have only finished the one instrument with the Hard Shellac, thinned somewhat with metho and sprayed with multiple coats. I was probably approaching it as I would with nitro and I may well have been doing it wrong.

I love the idea of of being able to finish an instrument in a way that doesn't need kidney-rotting thinners, but that I can spray on. A shellac/alcohol based finish that won't dissolve under a forearm is a ripper of a way to polish a guitar. Perhaps we as a, albeit small, community need to work with the UBeaut folks to refine the finish. Maybe it does set up a bit too brittle, and the inevitable movement of a top and back will lead to crazing with the current formula?

On the original topic, I was interested to see Bob's bracing on the dreadnaught (why won't the forum software let me type 'd*******t"?) soundboard, with the peaks on the X and lower transverse braces a lot further out towards the edge than I would have expected. May one enquire about your thinking in that approach to carving the braces?

I have played a couple of absolute cracker d********ts (and some really awful ones), but I am listening to lots of bluegrass at the moment, and that sound is part of it

cheers

graham

[Bob Connor]

On the original topic, I was interested to see Bob's bracing on the dreadnaught (why won't the forum software let me type 'd*******t"?) soundboard, with the peaks on the X and lower transverse braces a lot further out towards the edge than I would have expected. May one enquire about your thinking in that approach to carving the braces?


cheers

graham

It seems to work for us Graham. The last couple of dreads we built have at least as much volume and bottom end as my D-18.

Having said that I have one Dread left to glue on the braces and carve so I'll pull the peaks back on that one and see what difference it makes.

Sometimes you get stuck in a rut of what seems to work so a keen observation like this is always appreciated and makes a lot of sense.

Cheers

Bob

ps the dreadnought thing was a Hesh joke when we first started the forum.
I've fixed it.

[Craig]

Hi Bob,
I'm also not a happy U-Beaut camper. Very pissed off actually.

I'll have to refinish completley. The back of my guitar crazed ,while the top and sides checked ( what look like deep scratches ). Why they behaved differently , I have no idea, as it was sprayed on in the same manner, and at the same time. It's only taken 4 months for this to happen.

After leveling, the finish ended up quite thin. I would have thought a product should be well tested before putting it on the market. I'll never use it again. It says on the bottle ; ,may be french polished, dipped , sprayed,or brushed,, Shame on U-Beaut and Neil Ellis. I'm fuming ! Please pass that on when you see him Bob.

[Bob Connor]

I understand your pain Craig.

Gotta remember that this stuff was never designed for use on instruments.

And Neil will tell you that straight. I have had discussions with him and he is quite bemused that we are using it for instruments. When I asked him about the longevity as an instrument finish he was quite straight and said "Dunno. I'm a wood carver, not an instrument builder" so he has developed the product for a different purpose than we are using it for.

Perhaps it's the thinner wood that we're dealing with is shifting more than, say, furniture, so the cracking, checking etc is caused by the extra movement in the thin timbers.

What I am trying to understand is why it does it to some instruments and not others. And the ones of ours that have checked have been on tops - not back and sides. And it's not crazing like nitro crazing - extremely fine fractures and very close together.

He is also shifting enough of this stuff to furniture builders and is so busy with his two man operation (him and his wife) that it wouldn't be economically viable for him to research and develop a product that specifically suits us guitar builder types which make up a tiny percentage of his sales base.

I thought that these problems were isolated incidents that were happening because of our technique. Now that I find you other blokes are reporting the same thing I'll only be using it on test instruments to try and work out a fix for it.

Bob

[graham mcdonald]

If the bracing pattern works then, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just looking at it from a structural point of view, it would seem to be adding stiffness out towards the rim(where you probably don't need it), rather than controlling the torquing of the bridge and stopping any tendency for the soundboard behind the bridge to belly up.

cheers

graham

[sebastiaan56]

Ah..... the 2 topic thread,

Re Hard Shellac, I'll go back to flake shellac untli I hear more from you guys who use it a lot, thx for the heads up. I think Bob alluded to it but have these guitars been played a lot? May be it needs to be more flexible for instruments. I'll watch the classical I did with great interest. Ive used it on wall clocks etc with great results.

[Bob Connor]

I've just spoken with Neil and am meeting him next Tuesday to show him one of the instruments with the crazing.

He was very pleased that I rang as he is getting more and more enquiries from luthiers and he wants to make sure that his product will
work for us. So he is quite concerned about it and will work with us to find a solution.

He thinks that it may need a plasticizing agent to make the finish a little more flexible and to that end is making me up a batch for testing purposes.

It'll obviously take a while to test and check but it looks like he'll put out a seperate product for instrument builders once we get the formula right.

Bob

[Kim]

Great progress Bob, ya bloody show off.

And thanks for the leg work with Neil on the Hard Shelac issue. I am sure that Neil will do the righty, he has always maintained from day dot that he never had instrument builders in mind when he was developing this stuff. The big wrap was put forward by well meaning people excited to share their success, but due to the lack of time, were unaware of any potential problems.

If additional plastersizers are all it takes to make hard shellac work on instruments, it is sure to be a winner when fine tuned as the craft, at least at a hobby level is desperate to find something that will take away the expense and danger associated with squirting nitro. All in all, I think it is important to give Neil a fair crack, at least he is willing to work with us to try to find a solution.

Cheers

Kim