Tanalised Pine Advice

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ozziebluesman
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Tanalised Pine Advice

Post by ozziebluesman » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:34 pm

Hello everyone,

My question is dose anyone know if there would be any issues building a guitar top with tanalised or also known as treated pine? Issues such as reactions to glue, shellac finish dangers to contact with chemicals etc?

Here is the story.

I have just spent a weeks holiday on Norfolk Island and while there i asked at a local joinery if i could have a look through their pine wood offcuts. I found a piece of quater sawn Norfolk Pine which they gave to me. It has been tanalised. Please see pics.

Image

Image

I have conducted a little reseach on what chemicals are used in pine treatment but info is scarse. I understand there are a few different methods of treatment.

You can see in the pic that the treatment has not penitrated all the way through the piece. The boys at the joinery machined it down from 550 mm thick to 350 mm thick so as to see how far the treatment had gone through. Looks like i may get one or two tops almost treatment free.

Cheers

Alan

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Serge
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Post by Serge » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:33 am

Hi Alan,I would certainly use that for guitar making but i sure would pass it in the drum sander for the top piece and have all the chemicals sanded out first, but i'm no expert in treated woods so i'll let someone else enlighten you approprietly, wouldn't want you to regret my poor advice.

Looks really good though

Serge
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Post by sebastiaan56 » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:52 am

Hi Alan,

I know the safety argument has raged over this this treatment. There are a number of erudite conflicting opinions here. http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=59780 I would be very careful about breathing the dust from sanding. Maybe planing to thickness?

Sebastiaan

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Post by kiwigeo » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:37 am

Take the usual precautions sanding that stuff and watch out for those knots.

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Post by Hesh1956 » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:27 am

Put some cool sun glasses on it and see how it looks...... :D

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Post by Rick Turner » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:43 pm

I just have to say that it doesn't LOOK like anything I'd consider making into an acoustic guitar top. That's going to be a hard sell. Folks are used to the look of spruce or western red cedar; they don't like wide grain unless it's Adirondack spruce; and knots are just out. If you're building this for yourself, that's one thing, but if you're building it to sell on spec...well, you might want to reconsider.

If it's for you, does it have a similar longitudinal and cross-grain stiffness to weight ratio to more common top woods? How's the density?

Add to that that it's got nasty chemicals in it, and I'd walk away from it.
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Post by James Mc » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:59 pm

Hey Alan
A half dozen or so enquiries re the safety of treated pine come through my office each year so I’ve looked into it many times. As far as good research goes I’ve never found anything that suggests that there are any real problems with dry timber (wet timber and burning it are where the problems arise). I can’t see why you would have a problem provided you took the recommended precautions i.e. don’t breath the dust and avoid prolonged or unnecessary skin contact.

As for the chemical reaction there is some recent concern with regards to cyanoacrylate (superglue), enough that consideration was or is being given to putting a warning on the data sheet recommending against using it (although it seemed to be talking about using CA as a varnish). Better safe than sorry, I would avoid using CA at all.

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Post by Rick Turner » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:40 pm

I still come up with the basic question, "Why use it at all?" Is there an overriding reason to use this timber as a top? Materials, especially for a builder starting out, are but a tiny bit of the cost (if you value time) of building an instrument. Why try for bargain-shop top wood when that is the heart and soul of an acoustic guitar? That's the very last place to try to save a dime.
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Paul B

Post by Paul B » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:25 pm

I sort of echo Ricks remarks. But not quite. But it does seem like you might be fighting a losing battle.

If you're like me and are into trying out local timbers, then have a crack. If it's good for masts on sailing ships, then it might be good for our use too (they need a good stiffness to weight ratio also).

The whole treated pine thing is a bit concerning. Treated radiata pine is pretty crap for gluing or staining, so you might want to do a few test pieces to see what's what.

If it wasn't treated I'd say go for it. Since it is, I'd say proceed with caution. Don't get so caught up with using it that you go against your better judgment.

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Post by Rick Turner » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:43 pm

Just remember that "trying out local timbers" is one thing. Selling guitars is another.

This from a guy who has spent 35 years selling guitars and basses made out of local timbers. But not with acoustic guitar tops... For plenty of good reasons...
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Paul B

Post by Paul B » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:56 pm

Rick Turner wrote:Just remember that "trying out local timbers" is one thing. Selling guitars is another.
Absolutely.

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Post by Kim » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:45 pm

Paul B wrote:If it's good for masts on sailing ships, then it might be good for our use too (they need a good stiffness to weight ratio also).
There are those who argue, and with good reason, that aside from clearing away the back log of convicts from the uld mug, one of the main reasons that Australia was colonised was due to the promise of the Norfolk Island Pine. Captain James Cook had sailed past Norfolk Island and noted strands of tall pines most suitable for mast and spar. That was an assumption that would later prove to be wrong.

Before the colonisation of Australia, England had been clearing it's gaols by sending it's convicts to America as a source of cheap labour for the flax farms of southern America. England had control of the USA, so they could take all the spruce they desired and the flax was a captured market. But then, the USA won their independence from England and with the independence, England had lost her main resource of mast timbers and flax which was used for the manufacture of sail cloth.

This was a major blow for she who ruled the waves. Military might at that time was measured in ships of war. Without mast and sail, she would rule no more. This and that fact that her arched enemy the French had now, through support of the Americans, secured unlimited access to the resource that once was their own realy stung.

So back to those pine on Norfolk:

In 1770, when Cook sailed past Norfolk Island noting the pines, he had continued up the coast of eastern Australia. Joseph Banks, his ships botanist, has noted that some areas along the eastern sea board presented ideal grounds for the production of flax.

When the home secretary and lord of the Admiralty revisited Cook's notes after the tea party of 1773, a new interest was shown in Australia. Not only did colonisation offer the prospect of replacing a lost resource, but it also presented a possible solution to the over-flowing prison hulks. The fact that the British had also got wind that the French were now sniffing around our waters presented the threat that they may garrison Norfolk and commandeer that resources for themselves. This no doubt also assisted the British to finally make the decision to colonise Australia.

The 'irony' is that the first log dropped on Norfolk reveal the truth about the pines. The timber is completely unsuitable for masts or spars. The wood has many knots and curves in the grain making it weak and prone to sheering or snapping under the stress of a tall sail rather than bending along it's length spreading the load as the straighter grain species were known to do.

As for flax? The rain fall in Australia proved far too low and unpredictable in this, one of the most arid of countries. The test crops withered and died and the entire venture, at least from a military perspective, had been a failure. However those same harsh conditions which ruined the flax did proved to be an ideal way for England to rid herself of those convicts that had nowhere else to go.

Make your guitar from Norfolk Pine Alan, put a label inside saying "Cook's Promise" and when people ask, tell'm the story in a song. :wink:

Cheers

Kim

Paul B

Post by Paul B » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:10 pm

Well, there you go. Learn something new everyday.

I'd thought that those pines worked out well for spars, I mustn't have been paying attention in Mr Jarvis' geography lessons.

Anyone else here carve a guitar neck the same way you'd carve a spar? Funny how you carry over a technique from one area of woodwork into the next...

Still no reason you'd not use Norfolk island pine for a guitar top.

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Post by ozziebluesman » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:50 pm

Thanks everyone for your input.

Some healthy discussion has taken place and you have all been very helpfull!!

Rick, i am an absolute beginner guitar builder and the instruments i build are for my own enjoyment. I have just taken advantage of the forum Adi buy and i have two beautiful red spruce tops on their way to me. Your point on using quality woods is valid and good advice but this Norfolk Pine thingy of mine is just a bit of fun. The whole exersize may not be successful but experimenting with our local woods appeals to me.

Here is some specs from our forums Australian Wood section you asked about:

Norfolk, Bunya and Hoop Pine are all part of the same Araucaria species

Dry density
Bunya is ~460 kg/m3
Hoop is ~530 kg/m3
Norfolk is ~550 kg/m3

I intend to try some hide glue, shellac test runs on the piece before deciding weather to use it or not.

Thanks also for the advice on the health issues and i will take care working with the wood.

Thanks Kim for the history lesson also.

Norfolk Island is truley a magical place full of history and interest.

Cheers

Alan

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Kim
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Post by Kim » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:43 pm

Paul B wrote:Well, there you go. Learn something new everyday.

I'd thought that those pines worked out well for spars, I mustn't have been paying attention in Mr Jarvis' geography lessons.

Anyone else here carve a guitar neck the same way you'd carve a spar? Funny how you carry over a technique from one area of woodwork into the next...

Still no reason you'd not use Norfolk island pine for a guitar top.
Paul sorry mate, I was not trying to be a smart arse, no attack on you was meant and I hope my comments were not taken that way. I am sure that Norfolk Pine has been used successfully for mast and spars in the past but probably not for naval vessels. If I recall correctly, the British Navy considered Norfolk pine to be too risky for the amount of sail you would typically fine on a man-o-war.

This is understandable when you consider that in an open sea pursuit situation, pushing all those tons of ship, guns, men, and munitions along in a strong wind as fast as the square footage of sail the vessel could manage, just one snapped mast could spell disaster. A snapped mast could leave a ship not only with a reduction in speed, but it would also greatly decreased it's maneuverability. She would go from the hunter to a sitting duck to be picked off at will in the blink of an eye eye captain.

It must be remembered that these military vessels were in fact the formula 1 of their day. More than that, they were the space shuttle, they were the defenders of an empire and the controllers of world commerce. In short these ships were the single most important thing man had come up with to that point in time and nothing could be given to chance.

Cheers

Kim

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Post by BillyT » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:25 pm

I think the wood has a unusual grain, other than the knots I would try perhaps a side and back or two if this is for your own experience. I've seen Bunya used for sides and backs like Koa, and Bunya has a very nice quality to it in my book!

In the US there's commonly 3 types of pressure treated wood one of them is an arsenic compound that has or is being removed from the general market. The other 2 are reported safe, whatever that means. This tanalising is probably safe but it's probably better to error on the safe side.

Paul B

Post by Paul B » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:34 pm

Kim mate, no worries.

I was repeating something that I learned at school in the late 70's. Always happy to hear the facts.

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