French Polishing--when is enough bodying?

[nnickusa]

I've just completed my 6th bodying session, and I think it's going well....

After four, I decided that the grain filling on the back was not very good, so I re-did it using 600grit wet/dry paper soaked in metho, and the result is MUCH better. Not perfect, but pretty dammed good.

I noticed that I did not sand through to wood while doing this, adn "caught up" by bodying the back a few more times....

Two things I noticed this morning during the most recent session is that the gloss is really popping now, and the muneca makes almost no sound as I body...

The Millburn site, which I'm using, loosly, as a reference is a but sketchy in some areas. One being how to tell if you have enough shellac built up, and two when and how to level the finish.

Two questions...

1. How does one tell when enough shellac is applied, and
2. How does one go about levelling the finish? I have wet/dry paper up to 1200, but no readily available finer stuff...

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Nick

[ozziebluesman]

G'day Nick,

Assuming the pores are filled correctly my process is twelve four hour sessions and each session I go around the guitar about four times. I use the rubber to apply, two syringe's, one for the shellac mix and one for the metholated spirits. The shellac mix is a two pound cut and I apply equal amounts to the rubber and go for it small patches at a time. I usually level every second session and I use 400 grit paper. After the twelve sessions the guitar is allowed to dry for at least a month, six weeks is better and then sand with 400 grit and you could go on to 1200 if you wanted a shinny finish. I prefer a flat finish and usually finish off at 600grit.

I have just finished another weissenborn and applied six sessions of the shellac process and finished off with tru-oil just as an experiment. I am pleased with the result so watch out for some pictures in the near future on the forum.

I am no expert but this method works for me. Only down side is it is very labour intensive!

Cheers

Alan

[nnickusa]

Mate,


i feel like the bleeding Karate Kid.....Wax on, Wax off

[peter.coombe]

1. How does one tell when enough shellac is applied, and

Basically when you are satisfied with the finish. Don't be afraid to apply more, there is little chance of applying too much. French polish is a very thin finish. However, as the shellac builds up, there is an increasing chance of stripping off the lower layers if you get too eager and don't let it dry properly or the muneca is too wet. If this happens you get an ugly patch, and then there is a fair bit of work to build it up again over the patch and make it invisible. You don't want that, so let it dry and don't over do the metho. Also don't be surprised if you think you are finished, but after it hardens for a couple of days or weeks, you realise it needs more work.

2. How does one go about levelling the finish? I have wet/dry paper up to 1200, but no readily available finer stuff...

1200 wet/dry is fine, but it depends on how much leveling is required. If the pores are not completely filled, then I would sand with 600 wet/dry and then have a couple of sessions with pumice. Sprinkle a small amout of pumice on the surface and work that in. Since you are using wet/dry, why don't you sand wet. I wet sand french polish with olive oil as the lubricant, then wipe it off. Since I use olive oil as the lubricant for french polishing it causes no issues. 1200 wet/dry with olive oil works great.

There are many ways to skin a cat, and practice makes perfect, especially when it comes to french polishing. 140+ instruments and I am still learning french polishing.

Peter

[auscab]

Hi Nick,
I use a mix of linseed oil and mineral turps for cutting back, roughly a 25 /75 mix. Usually with a 400 grit paper. I would not use metho for this type of cut back. I usually just hold the paper between my fingers. Sand paper around a rubber sanding block is a good way of cutting back as well, I got some good auto body repair types from Paint Spot in Melbourne. I have read of people using pencil erasers as well.

Enough shellac depends on what type of French polished finish you are wanting, most guitars are polished with the open pores of the wood totally filled and level, while cutting back is when to look, cut back shellac is dull, the low open grain still has a shine, you have to put enough body on the job so that when its cut back its 100% dull, without going through to wood. This is one of the hard things to learn in f/p , How to body. If you are trying to learn , it will be plenty of sessions till you work it out , if you have it worked out 3 maybe 4 x 15 to 20 minute sessions. With a good grain fill technique 2 x 15 minute sessions. This is before you start to finish off the finish.

General cut backs while bodying can be done with 400 grit, when you have it 100% dull you can go through to the finer grades.

You wrote .

“ The Millburn site, which I'm using, loosly, as a reference is a but sketchy in some areas. One being how to tell if you have enough shellac built up, and two when and how to level the finish. “

I would follow it loosely as well. The guy who wrote it filled in all the bits he didn’t know with crap. If you followed it to the letter and perfected his method, then went for a job amongst professional French polishers and told them you know what your doing , you would last an hour before they showed you the door. or re trained you.

[kiwigeo]

Mate,


i feel like the bleeding Karate Kid.....Wax on, Wax off

That's an optimists view of French Polishing

Comments from me...rank amateur at FP compared to Rob and Peter:

1. I generally do at least 8-10 bodying sessions. This process can take up to 2 months as I'm away working half the year.

2. Every 1-3 sessions I'll spirit off and every 4-5 sessions Ill level with 600grit wet and dry lubricated with walnut oil. Of late I'm moving towards fine tuning my spiriting off skills so I don't need to level with Wet and dry so much.

3. Grain filling with meths.....it'll work but my preference is to use pumice. Note that if youre not happy with a pore fill and youve done a few bodying sessions you can do more pore filling with pumice. Some people actually incorporate pumice into the first few bodying sessions.

4. My schedule is usually a bodying session last thing in the day and a spiriting off session next morning.

5. Since I switched to using walnut oil Ive found less oil coming to the surface to be removed during spiriting off sessions. Ive tried most of the various oils and I really have a preference for walnut oil.

6. There is not one technique that suits all in French Polishing....the more you do it the more you develop youre own technique.

Cheers Martin

[nnickusa]

The more I do???????

I think I'm spraying the next one with nitro

No, seriously, I like the idea of the FP, as it's all natural, and environmentally friendly....

As you all point out, I'll work out what works for me, and go from there....

My next build is Blackwood, and I think that would really be a stunning finish...

[nnickusa]

Follow up question to this is, do you all use a polish to finish the FP? I've read that non-abrasive car polish works, but what about Dunlop Guitar polish? I only ask because I have a bottle on hand.

Surely it's not abrasive, but I don't want to try it and ruin all the work I've put in so far

[kiwigeo]

I use Mcguires No 7 show glaze.

Just make sure any product you're using doesn't contain silicone. Silicone is great for boosting sagging t*ts but it should be let nowhere near a guitar.

[peter.coombe]

You can use Mcguires #7, and I have used it, but if you have your spiriting off technique down pat then any sort of polish is unnecessary. My latest mandolin has not a drop of Mcguires on it, and is one of the best finishes I have done.

I would follow it loosely as well. The guy who wrote it filled in all the bits he didn’t know with crap. If you followed it to the letter and perfected his method, then went for a job amongst professional French polishers and told them you know what your doing , you would last an hour before they showed you the door. or re trained you.

Yes, I have heard a few professional french polishes say that. I did read the Millburn tutorial a long time but did not take a lot of notice of it. It is probably the most comprehensive on the net, but there are better sources of information elswhere.

Peter

[nnickusa]

I think I'll need the polish. I've sanded back with 1200, and it looks like my pore-filling was better than I though, as the entire back looked very evenly dulled.....

I then tried the glazing procedure recommended, and though the guitar is very shiny, there are streaks left from the muneca. They are very small, and not too numerous, but I've had them at every stage, bodying, spiriting and glazing....

I paid very close attention to always have a "trail" so, I think I'm laying shellac on and not pulling it off...

I might try to do a couple more bodying sessions, and then just polish the bugger....As I understand it, with the FP, I can always go back and work on it in the future....

I don't know what else to try technique wise to remedy that phenomenon

[auscab]

Nick with the bodying up, a fast way to fill the grain is.

Get a bowl deep enough so you can drown the rubber, the bottom 100 mm of a plastic orange juice container the oval sectioned sort.

You are calling this a Menuca ,?spelling ? , Me call it a Rubber.
You need to have a rubber that is firm well and packed in ,you need to be able to hold it by the body of the rubber and work it with out the rag cover being loose , moving about or have folds in it. The traditional form of a rubber is best for this and when a new one is made I un roll it at the back and poke it tight a few times after a good soak in shellac. When they are first rolled they are as soft as a pillow, that’s no good ,firmly packed works.

Put 70 mm of shellac in it 2lb cut if you have it, not shellac that has been too thinned.
Dip in the rubber till it’s covered in shellac take it out and give it a squeeze, squeeze about half out.

Then on the back of your guitar,[ a good place to learn this ] just start to lay down straight lines over lapping , pretend the rubber is an airplane coming in to land then taking off at the end off the runway just at the last moment . How many straight passes has to do with the thickness of your shellac . try about 10 to 15 coverings of the back, keep charging the rubber full of shellac as soon as you start to feel it dragging, shellac is what you slipping along on, as long as too much is not coming out and leaving thick wet runs, avoid these they will ruin the work by soaking through the soft previous coats. Don’t use any oil yet ,let the shellac be the lubricant ,and give it a minute or two rest in between each 1 or 2 coats. You want a good build with no oil in it and you need to get a feel for when you are getting close to the edge and start pulling shellac off .

When you get up to about 10 or 15 total coverings give it a rest . wait about 10 minutes, Lightly touch what should be a shinny very sticky guitar back and see that with even a light touch your finger is grabbed by the soft shellac
Ttip 70% of your shellac mix back into its container and replace it with straight metho so you have a 70 /30 mix . fully dip the rubber and fully squeeze out a few times. Before you start to rub again squeeze every drop out that you can, then try a few straight passes, there still should be enough thin shellac coming out that the rubber does not grip, take the rubber off the job and squeeze again ,more will come out.

Now flick oil across the back. Dip your finger in up past your nail and flick your finger to throw the droplets ,twice or three times. and go back to straight passes to spread the oil out, the more you put on the harder it is getting it off at the end. As long as not to much shellac is coming out move in to doing circles and start to apply pressure. Do circles and eights and then back to straight passes with pressure for about 8 minutes . If you get it right this will be pushing your soft polish sideways .you cant see it happen but if you do it this way 3 times with cut backs in between by the third cut back you will have the grain full or be getting close, depending on how open the grain is.

Next you have to get the oil off, rinse and squeeze out the rubber a few times, every drop out again and go back to straight passes and circles then straight for a while , then another dip and squeeze and just straight , if the oil is being taken off the rubber will start to grip, go light and slow, you have to do this till you can give it a light stroke with a finger and see no oil smear. If you are having trouble getting it all off, let it sit for an hour and wipe it off with a soft clean cloth then give it a few passes with a dry rubber with the thin mix.

These explanations always take so long, this is one way of doing it , finishing it off is another thing again . Keep trying at it , it’s a good way to meditate I think ,staring into all those circles and straights.

[auscab]

Or the basic way of saying it is ,

Build it up and push it sideways.

[simonm]

Sometime back I saw a little video on youtube where one of the older Grenada luthiers was working on a French polish finish. I couldn't find the video right now otherwise I'd have put in a link. The guy was in his mid-60's in the video and wore a blue shop coat. I can't recall his name but I have a feeling he has retired from active building now.

What was interesting was his technique. I don't know what stage he was in the process but it was not the final polishing. At any rate he had a big bottle of what I took to be shellac. He liberally squirted it onto the back of the instrument and proceeded to attack it with a hand held machine like the ones people use for buffing cars. He was explaining (in Spanish) what he was doing as he was doing it. Definitely not the traditional muneca technique.

[charangohabsburg]

You are calling this a Menuca ,?spelling ? ,

Muñeca (with that funny snake on top of the letter n). Spelling: something like "moohniéhca".

[charangohabsburg]

O maybe better: moohn-e-éhca, if that makes sense.

[P Bill]

Rob I learn a bit more every time you post about polishing.

[nnickusa]

I'\m just getting morwe confused. There seem to be a thousand ways to do this

moon-ye-ka?

[Alastair]

At the risk of a flaming from Rob and co, and speaking as one who came into FP via the self-taught route, I still found the Milburn site the best resource I found.

However, their site is corrupted, and there are whole bits of the process missing, which is confusing.I obviously entered via the back door, and found the unsexy, but complete text, which helped

That said, I have had success using their methods, right up to the glazing stage.

Every time I have done this, I get almost to the point where I'm satisfied, and then start to go backwards, so definitely something misssing there.

I would like to try the Meguires as an alternative. Any sources in Sydney?

[nnickusa]

Google Meguire's car/auto polish/finish, and it'll lead you to thier site. Then you can plug in your postcode, and get a list with phone numbers of local dealers.

12 in the Northern Rivers.

[auscab]

O maybe better: moohn-e-éhca, if that makes sense.

Hey ,nothing makes sense to me about that name who applied it to a tool that a french polisher uses? and if he is right why is the process not called Spanish polishing ??

[Craig]

The old French Polisher guy I learnt from served his apprenticeship in the U.K. and only ever referred to it as a rubber. It's all I had known it as until reading an American forum. The majority of french polished American pianos I've come across all seem to have developed a crazed finish ( usually failure to remove all the oil ? ) , so beware of any American advice . The English and German finishes being way superior.
" Rubber " seems a whole lot easier than something you can't even pronounce let alone spell

[nnickusa]

In America a rubber is a condom. Not sure I want to polish my guitar with those

[Craig]

Would make polishing safer though Nick !


Umm,,,might explain why they give it another name

[auscab]

3 maybe 4 x 15 to 20 minute sessions. With a good grain fill technique 2 x 15 minute sessions. This is before you start to finish off the finish.

I just want to correct what I said here on Sunday to probably more like 3 maybe 4 x 35 to 45 minute sessions and 2 x 30 to 40 approx sessions.