Fret leveling question

[Paul Eisenbrey]

Hi all,

With five builds finished, I'm starting to pay attention to details that I either didn't bother with on the first few builds, or didn't even notice that they existed. Currently, I'm thinking about the initial fret leveling work on a new instrument.

On the ones I've finished so far, I level the fretboard, then glue it onto the neck. Then I re-level, because for whatever reason the darn thing arches during the process (perhaps the neck blank isn't level? I'll have to check that...). Then I install the frets, attach the neck to the guitar, and finally, level the frets. I don't have the neck under any particular load when I do it. And it seems to work fine. I can do the setup and string it up with no buzzes, rattles or other audible problems. So, I've been happy so far.

But Stew-mac sells a rub-goldberg looking neck jig for fretwork that looks like it simulates the tension on a strung-up guitar. My question is, why on earth would I want/need to use this? It seems to me -- without trying it, to be sure -- that if I put the neck under load, and then level the frets, that it would invalidate any relief that existed on the neck, and actually cause setup problems.

Obviously, I must be wrong about this, or Stew Mac would never sell any of those jigs. What am I missing?

Thanks!

--Paul

[Ormsby Guitars]

Hi all,

With five builds finished, I'm starting to pay attention to details that I either didn't bother with on the first few builds, or didn't even notice that they existed. Currently, I'm thinking about the initial fret leveling work on a new instrument.

On the ones I've finished so far, I level the fretboard, then glue it onto the neck. Then I re-level, because for whatever reason the darn thing arches during the process (perhaps the neck blank isn't level? I'll have to check that...). Then I install the frets, attach the neck to the guitar, and finally, level the frets. I don't have the neck under any particular load when I do it. And it seems to work fine. I can do the setup and string it up with no buzzes, rattles or other audible problems. So, I've been happy so far.

But Stew-mac sells a rub-goldberg looking neck jig for fretwork that looks like it simulates the tension on a strung-up guitar. My question is, why on earth would I want/need to use this? It seems to me -- without trying it, to be sure -- that if I put the neck under load, and then level the frets, that it would invalidate any relief that existed on the neck, and actually cause setup problems.

Obviously, I must be wrong about this, or Stew Mac would never sell any of those jigs. What am I missing?

Thanks!

--Paul

You mean to say, someone would sell something that doesnt have a real use?!?!?

I love Stewmac. I spent $9000 with them last year. They send me a xmas card every year.

They sell a hell of a lot of stuff that is not necessary. Just look at how many items they have to press a fret in... jaws 1, jaws 2, jaws 3, arbors, this, that, something else. Damn, there are fifteen different ways to polish a fret (all of which are slower, many many times over, than methods used with 'tools' they dont promote...).

Ive never used a neck jig. Ive never had a guitar that needed one (when repairing, I was doing up to 35-40 guitars a week), unless you include a handful of cheap arsed chinese knockoffs that had a multitude of other issues anyway.

Im sure there is someone here that swears by it. Probably the same guys that talk about spending four days straight doing a fret job.

--

If you use water based glues (titebond) then you can have creep and lamination issues when the moisture from the glue expands the neck/fretboard. Clamp it using a nice long stable 'unbendable' caul, and you'll have less issues. I use the stewmac alloy sanding beams. Epoxies dont have water, and dont expand the timber. Up to you if you go down that path.

[jeffhigh]

I agree with Perry ,can't see the need for it for initial leveling.
And as you say, it would be easy to end up with no relief.
If I had a problem guitar such as a non adjustable or maxed out truss rod, I would probably look at using John hall's method of supporting the neck up under the nut and using weights on the upper bout.
Or I would use an understring levelling tool.
But most of mine I just level straight and they often don't even need the truss rod adjusted .

[simso]

Im like perry, spend way too much with companys like Stewmac and LMI.

For info, I have the dan erlewene neck levelling thing a ma jiggy and its a waste of time, I think theres been 2 guitars that it was only ever useful for, and they were guitars that the wood was so soft that when you strung the guitar up the neck actually twisted up. These were cheapys and the manufacturer simply wanted them ""playable"".

If your in perth and want to try it, come and see me, if your in perth and want to buy it, definetly come and see me.

Fretboard fitment

Level the neck
Cut the fretslots in the fretboard
Level the fretboard bottom
Glue em up with lots of even pressure
Profile shape and level
Fret and level
String it up and set it up

Yibbida yibbida and thats all folks

[Allen]

I always fret the board off the neck, then glue the board on with epoxy afterwards. Use one of StewMacs alloy radius beams as a glue caul.

I press frets in with an arbour press using the appropriate shaped caul. I always have minimal fret levelling to do. Can't imagine needing that apparatus for any of my own builds, and if for some reason I though I would need it for a repair on someone else's, I think I would turn the job away. Let it be someone else's problem.

BTW, these companies specialise in marketing hype that makes you think you need every tool in their catalogue. Nothing wrong with their approach. You just have to sift through the hype and BS.

[Paul B]

What Perry said

But for us builders, as opposed to repair guys who have to deal with bad builders down the line, perhaps you're over-thinking this.

A well prepared neck and fretboard doesn't need a lot of work to get the frets level. I don't even bother (I hope I'm not the only one!). Once I have my neck made and the fret slots cut I press them in with an arbor and then I forget about them, because I know the neck is good to go.

A good fret job is like a good finish (on a newly made guitar), it's all in the preparation, and in this case it means thinking about the frets while you're making the neck. Do it properly from the get go and you won't have to deal with the finicky stuff when you get to the set-up.

IMHO.

[simso]

I believe most manufacturers also do not level there frets afterwards, yes gibson now """supposedly"" uses a plek machine, but I question that every guitar goes onto the machine.

It is when consumers (that is the player), want to squeeze more, out of there guitar, example the action lowered or drop tunings and so forth that problems start arising with close, but not perfect fret jobs.

For this as a repairer Im grateful, because it keeps people like me and my employees and others associated in the repair industry and stores that do setups etc actively employed.

[Moonstruck]

I bought one of the Erlewine neck-jigs from Stewmac and it does what it should. The only problem is that it isn't needed for most fret work and is only really worth setting up for each guitar if you really need to use it. Such as a guitar with a non-adjustable neck, where you can then monitor and manipulate relief or fret-compression etc.

I don't agree that a fretboard should be levelled in the playing position but rather dead straight. Then you can adjust the neck for the right amount of relief that is required. The jig helps with this in non adjustable necks or stubborn necks to get them straight. I would not use it to add forward bow (relief) for leveling purposes.

Also. I believe you should always level your fretboard after gluing it down, as the moisture from the glue can make a difference to the original level of the board. (amongst other variables)

[Paul Eisenbrey]

Thanks folks,


I'll keep doing what I'm doing, then, and forego the neck thingamajig. As a newby builder I get worried sometimes that I'm doing it wrong, and things are kinda working by accident.

[tippie53]

Taking fretting to the next level , I used to do it the way lots of you described. I took my playability to the next level when I started doing this.
1 Set neck and plane fretboard.
2 Fret neck. use a smaller tang fret at the fret board extension
3 level and dress frets.

What this does , is allow to true up the fretboard on the neck and on the guitar. This makes a good chance to make a playable dead flat neck. It is a small thing that made a big difference in the guitars feel. I also use pocket frets or bound necks so the tangs don't show.

My tools for leveling are actually something simple and affordable. I use diamond sharpening stones. My leveling process is this
1 mark the frets with a sharpie pen.
Level frets.
2 remark and crown the frets.
3 polish the frets and ends.
rough the nut slots to .007 off the fret plane.
Use a straight edge off the 1st fret to the saddle and make adjustments to a 2 3 action height.
String up and check for buzzing and adjust the relief if needed. I use flat to .006 relief.

[Paul Eisenbrey]

Hi,

I think i understand almost all of that. But two sentences at the end have me puzzled:

-----
rough the nut slots to .007 off the fret plane.
Use a straight edge off the 1st fret to the saddle and make adjustments to a 2 3 action height.
-----

I am unsure what it means to '.007 off the fret plane', and what a 2 3 action height is. Can you expand on that a bit?

Thanks!

--Paul

[tippie53]

You want the bottom of the nut slot to be about .007 above the plane of the top off the frets.
a 2 3 action means
2/32 in and 3/32 in

[H3ytm@n]

... use a smaller tang fret at the fret board extension...

This is a new idea for me.
Can you tell me the logic behind this? Do you do this for the whole fretboard extension? What fret wire do you use?

Thanks

[simso]

That makes no sense to me, curious myself as to why.

[tippie53]

I am speaking of the fret tang . If you have too large a tang you will exert a good bit of force on the top. I also use fish glue as a filling agent when I fret. You want that fret board as flat and true as possible. If your tang pushes on the end grain in the slot it can cause the fret board to dip into the top or hump up.
I use fret tang thickness of .0205 in to .0185 unless I am compression fretting a non adjustable rod. It is all about matching the slot and the fret.

[Tom West]

Long before the Stew-Mac jig came on the market Don Teeter had a very similar rig that he pictured in his repair books. He did not use it for regular freting but rather for certain problem necks while refreting. He discovered there were certain necks, no matter how well he leveled fretboards and frets that would develop humps and bumps when strung up. He used his jig to simulate the neck under similar tension as if the strings were attached. Leveled boards and frets and restrung and like magic the neck was as it should be. Don Teeter's books on guitar are the best IMHO. So also IMHO there is no need for the Stew-Mac jig for the average person. But that is just me.
Tom

[Nick]

I have the stewmac neck jig & it used to get used alot, i don't like running relief on my necks preferring to set everything up flat, the owner can add some relief if they so desire. If it's set up flat & level then there's no chance of any buzz if they add some relief.
Having said that though, ever since I started using the fret barber to reduce back bow ( the same as John speaks of) & fretting off neck, I've not needed to do much dressing at all, just the odd one if there's a slight buzz. So the neck jig sits there looking all technical but collecting dust .

[Tom West]

Just to correct my statement of last post. Don Teeter's books on guitar repair are the best there are IMHO.
Tom

[tippie53]

I have a neck jig , In electrics I find it more useful than acoustics but it is an overkill jig and one I would not buy again or recommend.

[P Bill]

Thanks for asking the question Paul and all the answers everybody. Very informative as usual. I've always wondered about that contraption.

Paul your cat looks a bit like Yoda. Is that his normal expession or a lucky shot?

[Ormsby Guitars]

Thanks for asking the question Paul and all the answers everybody. Very informative as usual. I've always wondered about that contraption.

Paul your cat looks a bit like Yoda. Is that his normal expession or a lucky shot?

https://www.facebook.com/TardTheGrumpyC ... ts&fref=ts

[tippie53]

OK so you want to compare cats LOL this is one of the most spoiled cats in the world and my wife and I are his servants and staff .
Yes Yoda cat is a great looking cat.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 519&type=1

[Paul Eisenbrey]

As Perry pointed out: not my cat. The image happened to match my mood on the day I was looking for an avatar. It's pretty good, but doesn't hold a candle to Lillian's .

--Paul