A major disaster

[56nortondomy]

I've just had a disaster with a guitar i'm building, droped a measuring jug on the top and smashed it. Is it possible to take the top off and replace it? Any advice welcome. Wayne

[charangohabsburg]

I've just had a disaster with a guitar i'm building, droped a measuring jug on the top and smashed it.

aarrrrghhh! Not a nice view.

Is it possible to take the top off and replace it?

Of course yes. How not?

I suppose you used an outside mould to build the box, so put it back in that mould and, if you used water soluble glue for gluing the binding on you can get it off with steam and a small spatula (I have done that, works like a charm), or if you used any "more permanent" glue you can rout the binding off ( I think John the Woodrat has done the second one).

I in your situation would save the most possible surface of the intact part of the top and probably later build an odd shaped guitar, the kind which have sort of a "cutaway" right at the spot where your guitar got damaged, to place the guitar with the lower treble bout side on the leg (or just to make it look "interesting"?) can't find a picture of these odd models right now.

Is this top redwood? (I am just curious). It is too nice to fire up the pizza oven...

[56nortondomy]

Sinker redwood Markus, thanks for the advice, i might try the steam, sounds good. Wayne

[charangohabsburg]

thanks for the advice, i might try the steam, sounds good.

Here some pictures from my charango build-and-repair thread about how I removed part of a top (plus fretboard) with steam (with one of those bathroom mirror steamers).

The start is the trickiest part:


etc. ...





The binding was glued on with hide glue, the top with Titebond original, and everything came off pretty clean.
As I already mentioned I think it will be a good idea to have your guitar in the mould from the beginning until the new top will be on again because its sides are not that sturdy as this 6mm thick charango bowl.

Good luck!

[Trevor Gore]

Love that vise, Markus!

Wayne, that's a total bummer.

I've taken the tops of my research guitars a few times and it's no big deal. When the new one is on, no one would know that the guitar has been re-topped. To a degree, it depends what your internal structure is like, but the principal is much the same, regardless. First thing is take the neck off, but as you've not got to that stage, no problem. On my guitars it's easy because they have bolt-on, bolt off necks, so no un-gluing is involved. The next step sounds worse than it is, but just drill a hole in the top and then run around the inside of the linings/end blocks with a jigsaw. You won't even have to drill a hole! No need to be particularly precise, just don't cut into the the chassis. Then clean the rest off the linings/end blocks using a block plane. This should get you really close, ready for the new top, but a touch up in a sanding dish (spherical radius dish, presuming you use them) with the box in the mould will get you spot on. If you let any braces into the linings, just saw/chisel the old ones out in the normal way, ready to accept the new ones. Glue on the new top, and do the binding and purfling as usual. Once you decide to scrap the old top, this procedure is way quicker than trying to save bindings, purflings, etc. and gives a neater outcome. Getting the old top off and cleaning up takes about 10 minutes.

If you have a fancy butt strip going on, with odd angle mitres (hard to see exactly, from your pics) and want to keep those, when you rout for the new bindings rout so as to keep the side purflings. I've left up to a couple of millimetres of binding in their, too and with dark wood bindings its almost impossible to see that there are two binding strips on there.

I know that some people have routed around the inside of the purfling and dropped a new top in but that takes some real precision to make it look good and takes much longer fitting everything up.

Good luck!

[woodrat]

Hi Wayne....I have done a couple exactly they way Trevor described in his post above....you might like to have a look at some pictures of my little "save" after I had a wee accident......

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4181&hilit=Blackwood+OM+rebuild

Hope it helps you see the way forward...

John

[56nortondomy]

I remember reading that John in your original post. Thanks Trevor for the advice, i think i'll do it your way, but i'll wait until i get a new top. If i make a good save i'll post some photos. Thanks again Trevor and John, you too Markus. Wayne

[Gazm]

OUCH!! Wayne... What happened next?, fright or flight?? fright being, a full lung gasp of air, held in till eye's bulge, hands clasp wobbling head with vice grip, eyes glued tightly shut...or, flight...briskly pacing workshop floor, darting death looks at said damaged box, growling precise profanities at the four point's of the compass & then bolting to puter for ANZLF'ers comforting support...for me all of the above!!!! My only saving grace for you Wayne, when you dissect that totally damaged top,send it up to me in Brisvegas & I'll fit it to a ukuerie box, It'll take the pain away, & I promise I'll post pic's to the forum

Gaz

[56nortondomy]

Well Gaz, i'd gladly let you have it, but i think it won't be much chop after i take it off, and besides that it's a small body guitar so i don't think it will be big enough even for a uke. I was pretty calm after it happened, because i wasn't totally happy with it, so now's my chance to make it better, not too happy about the financial side of this stuff up though. Just ordered a new top from RC tonewoods. Wayne

[woodrat]

OUCH!! Wayne... What happened next?, fright or flight?? fright being, a full lung gasp of air, held in till eye's bulge, hands clasp wobbling head with vice grip, eyes glued tightly shut...or, flight...briskly pacing workshop floor, darting death looks at said damaged box, growling precise profanities at the four point's of the compass & then bolting to puter for ANZLF'ers comforting support...for me all of the above!!!! My only saving grace for you Wayne, when you dissect that totally damaged top,send it up to me in Brisvegas & I'll fit it to a ukuerie box, It'll take the pain away, & I promise I'll post pic's to the forum

Gaz

Gaz, I find that what you describe wastes too much energy....quietly crying in the corner takes much less effort!

You Know Who

[Dennis Leahy]

Any thoughts at all of creating a patch that looks like an inlay? If you don't go crazy with cleats on the backside, I'll bet it won't sound noticeably different than what it would have sounded like.

If you try a patch (not a "hidden" patch, that would be impossible in this top), and you don't like the sound of the guitar (or hate the look of the "inlay"), THEN rip it off and start over.

How about inlaying a shark coming up through the top, teeth first (a surfer's nightmare?)

Dennis

[charangohabsburg]

Could someone enlighten me what's the point of removing the top with a jig saw (losing quite a few millimetres of precious wood that one maybe wishes to be a bit bigger for further use) - if one afterwards has to remove the binding carefully anyway? This means to do the job twice!

Love that vise, Markus!

Thanks Trevor. It turned out to be much more useful than I thought it would be when I built it.

[jeffhigh]

I think Trevor is talking about cutting from the top, just inside the linings.
Then plane off the remainder down to just touch the linings, install new soundboard and rout for bindings as usual, removing the remains of the old in the process,

[Bob Connor]

if you install your bindings with a router just use that jig to rout the top off.

Regards

[charangohabsburg]

I think Trevor is talking about cutting from the top, just inside the linings.

Yes, that's what I meant with "losing some millimetres". I'm a curmudgeon.

Then plane off the remainder down to just touch the linings, install new soundboard and rout for bindings as usual, removing the remains of the old in the process,

Makes sense, thank you Jeff.

[Trevor Gore]

Could someone enlighten me what's the point of removing the top with a jig saw (losing quite a few millimetres of precious wood that one maybe wishes to be a bit bigger for further use) - if one afterwards has to remove the binding carefully anyway?

I've never tried to re-purpose a top because by the time the damage is cut away, the top you have left would be for an instrument where the existing sound hole would be too big.

The bindings are not removed and reused using the jigsaw method, they are just machined away when routing the new binding channels. You can save the side purfling and butt strip mitres (which might otherwise mean re-doing the butt strip) by routing shallow down the sides, even leaving some of the original binding above the side purfling. Un-purfled bindings are then installed and on dark woods it is very hard to see the join between the old and new bindings, if done well.

John (Woodrat) has pictures of how he did it, and Jeff's comments are accurate. Attached is a picture of one of my re-topped research guitars, where you can see the two levels of binding. I didn't try to match the woods particularly on this one; I just used the next available binding strips.

DSCF4235s.jpg (97.98 KiB) Viewed 20616 times

[Taffy Evans]

I would try the inlay method, It's got me out of the poo a few times in the past, also this week in fact after a sleepless night. In the pic posted here the top was not worth saving so I routed inside the purfling through the top and fitted new top inside the old purfling.

P3050045 (Small).JPG (45.39 KiB) Viewed 20517 times

P4070019 (Small).JPG (39.38 KiB) Viewed 20517 times

[Trevor Gore]

Nice chops, Taff.

If I had a style 40-odd, that's what I'd try first. But I try to avoid doing any type of repair work these days!

[56nortondomy]

Thanks Taffy, but i'm not sure i have the precision for your idea, i think i'll stick with Trevor's, it sounds pretty straightforward. Wayne

[kiwigeo]

Taff,

If you could briefly describe the fitting process for the new top Id be most appreciative. In particular Id like to know how you get the fit just right.

Cheers Martin

[pat foster]

Here's a link from John Greven's web site showing the routing/inlaying method.

http://www.grevenguitars.com/retopping-demo.html

Pat

[kiwigeo]

Here's a link from John Greven's web site showing the routing/inlaying method.

http://www.grevenguitars.com/retopping-demo.html

Pat

Thanks Pat

[56nortondomy]

Finally managed to get the top replaced, had to wait for the weather to cool off so i could brace the new top. Pretty much followed Trevor's method, except for using a jigsaw, i didn't want to damage the internal soundboard ( should be infernal soundboard, it's been a pain in the arse. ). I used a hacksaw blade and exacto knife to cut the damaged top off, anyway it all went pretty smoothly and i'm happier with the new top. Thanks again to everyone for the advice. Wayne

[EricDownunder]

I have never heard of a guitar with a internal soundboard! What does it achieve, volume, tone, I would really like to know more. The combination of bracing etc etc etc it's obvious you have spent a lot of time on this one and I'm sure it's going to be fantastic when your finished and the repair will be just a memory.

Is that a cat's paw for a sound hole?

[56nortondomy]

Yes it's a cat's paw Eric. Not sure what the internal s/board's supposed to achieve, i just build them like i'm asked, this guy has some unusual requests, first it was a kasha now this one, next one is going to have a raised fretboard and the one after that is a Selmer with a fanned fretboard, and also a fiddle kit from stewmac to put together for him, at least he's keeping me busy, repeat buisness gotta be good. Wayne