Cypress macrocarpa Soundboards ? Freebies !

[curly]

Cypressus macrocarpa , mostly known here as Macrocarpa or just Macro . In it's home ground it's known as Monterey Cypress .

Macro is widely planted as a farm fence line windbreak , sometimes hedge and sometimes amenity tree . In Australia I haven't found any examples of it's use in forestry in any concerted way . They are timber trees by default . N.Z. is more advanced on this front and have done some trials with various results , some very promising .

My reason for posting here instead of in the timber section is that I would love some feedback on peoples use of Macro , and perhaps we could advance that knowledge .
I have been salvaging and milling Macro quite a lot the last while . Mostly I'm chasing furniture and boat building timbers . I have cut and sold back and sides sets for flamenco guitars in macro , a use I am not entirely convinced by . The traditional Cypress for flamenco being C. sempivirens , Spanish Cypress which is significantly heavier .

So currently what I am trialling , hopefully with some help of the good peoples of this forum , is new as best I know . Macro soundboards . To do this I am endeavouring to supply the best prepared timber to give the truest results . To this end I have selected a primo log . 800mm diameter , heart bang in the middle to clear tensionwood issues from lean . Free of branch deviation . The soundboards will be sawn from split billet blocks , any blocks with wander in the split are discarded .
What I am asking for is for help testing , with your various methods . And hopefully some builds with Macro soundboards . I'll supply air dry soundboards free of charge . I just ask that you cover postage . It will be the best I can produce for the job .

Whilst I could provide a density and stiffness I will leave it for you guys to calculate yours . It will give much truer findings if I leave it opens to peoples own methods .
And of course I would love for the timber to work , but the beauty of putting it out to such a talented bunch is that we will get an honest response . If it's not going to work then I'd sooner we not sell it . In a forum like this I wouldn't be surprised if someone indeed had tried macro for soundboards . I'd love to hear what you have found . I also think the best way of advancing our knowledge is to supply the best timber possible . If the model yields any results I could possibly offer other timbers up for trial .

I've got a couple of photos to add to wet your woodly appetites . If there is much interest I'll post photos of the soundboards to be sent out .
The log pictured unfortunately is not the one I'm trialling , it didn't make the grade . It just shows the sort of thing we are working with . I didn't have photos of the right log at hand . Split billet is the actual stuff .
Thanks .
Pete

[curly]

Oops ,
Maybe I should stick to timber . I'll try again on the split billet photo.

[Nick]

Excellent project Pete and I would be extremely keen to see the results from this. Macro is a predominant windbreak tree used over here NZ farms and is rarely thought of as more than that and chopped up for firewood once it has to be felled. I have unfortunately seen a stump close to 1.5 meters in diameter on a farm and when I enquired as to what happened to the top bit a fat finger was pointed at the firewood pile. I managed to aquire, due to a work mate who mills timber in his spare time, two perfectly quarter sawn boards of macro only wide enough for classical back and sides unfortunately. He then went on to kindly resaw it all into 6mm thick pieces for me. I have always thought I'd use it for classical builds as back and sides, it has a slight flaming in the grain too but if it can be used as a soundboard it opens up so many more uses for it.

[Trevor Gore]

Hmmm... interesting, Pete.

I just looked up the numbers, and the published ones put it pretty much in the Sempervirens ball park, which is where Brian Burns (N. Cal. builder) puts it. A lot of Macrocarpa grows around his place and he's measured quite a bit of it and reckons its pretty similar to Sempervirens. So is the Aus. version a lot lower density than the native stuff?

[liam_fnq]

I've used it for a uke soundboard. I wont make that mistake again.

[charangohabsburg]

Hi Liam, may I ask which exactly was the problem?

[jeffhigh]

I used some for a Flamenco back and sides about 3 years ago
It was before I was testing back and sides for physical properties so I have no data.
It was so easy to damage with a stray fingernail etc that I probably won't use it again.
It also tapped like cardboard so I suspect it has quite high damping (ok for a flamenco)
The guy who bought it loves it
I used Alaskan yellow cedar (cypruss) for the next.

It would be interesting to test it for use as a soundboard, but I really can't see that I would be likely to use it in a build.

[curly]

Already I'm learning more , tis brilliant .
I'd love to know your source for density stats Trevor . Not at all because I am questioning them . More so becauce I am getting a huge range of densities across various sources . As to whether local grown timber of Macro is lighter , this may well be the case . Personally I have measured samples air dry down to the high 300's and up into the high 500's . Given we are aiming at a " higher ' use than I have previously put it to , I reckon I could be more exacting in my method . To date what I have been doing is a green density , an oven dry measurement and an air dry density based on set dimensions and recorded weight over a period until the sample was simply fluctuating with reliative humidity . Next step would be to control the humidity in my test space , to date my sawmill work sites are fairly rudimentary . My new building workshop is currently only an open frame .
It is not inconceivable that we are growing the same species and getting different densities . Density to a large extent being a measure of cell wall thickness , particularly in the late wood . Differing climates and soil types could well affect the difference . Studies in .N.Z with Thuja plicata have definitively produced this result , unfortunately with a corresponding drop off in strength / stiffness in an already light / somewhat weak wood. There is also a possibility of poor or limited genetics in cultivated trees here.
My most dense samples of Macro have come from mean sites , marginal to the trees growth . High rainfall and deep soils are where my better ones have grown . The trees need competition to acheive clear , straight stems . It wood seem they have poor apical dominance . The very best clear boles have almost inevitably been escaped hedges . The common story goes that during the second war ,with no man hours to maintain hedges they shot , or escaped . This often produces a massive figured base full of compression issues , topped by multiple co-dominant leaders . Particularly up the inside of these stems long lengths of clear compression free wood are sometimes produced .

It may well be that macro is indeed better suited to B & S on flamenco . It'd be interesting to find out . If I recall i sent out a cello soundboard to one of the forum members here too .
The difficulty of course is that for someone to build with it is a massive investment of time for uncertain results . But then it has ever been so that advances in knowledge and technique have been hard won .

Pete

[nnickusa]

I'd have a go, but I've got a set I got off Tim a while back, and don't know if I love it. I've also got way too many builds going at once. I would try it, and have been wanting to build a guitar for test purposes. If it turnwed out, well, meh, that could be the guitar. No chance of completion before the end of the year, tho....

Interestingly, I've just had a query regarding a double bass. Any idea what happened to the cello?

[liam_fnq]

Hi Liam, may I ask which exactly was the problem?

Way too floppy both across and along the grain. Had to leave it thick and therefore heavy. The instrument sounded ok but not great. When spruce and cedar and other timbers are so readily available and work so much better it's a bit of a no contest.

I'd definitely use it for back and sides again, paired with a spruce top.

[Bob Connor]

We've used it for back and sides for a carved mando and were quite happy with how it went. Don't think I'd consider it for a top though.

Regards

[Trevor Gore]

I'd love to know your source for density stats Trevor .

You're asking me to reveal my sources?!!

There's lot of places, actually.

The French CIRAD site is pretty good, but they keep on changing the the URLs on their pages and they can be a real PITA to find again. Here are the current ones:

http://tropix.cirad.fr/africa/africa.html
http://tropix.cirad.fr/america/america.html
http://tropix.cirad.fr/asia/asia.html
http://tropix.cirad.fr/temperate/temperate.html

The spec sheets are in English but with some pretty dodgy translations here and there, so it helps if you know a bit of French so you can figure out what they might be meaning.

The Wood Database is not a bad resource:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-identification/

Then there's the US Forest Products handbook (Chapters 3 & 4 in particular):

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publi ... eader_id=p

and, of course, there's good ol' Bootle.

That's a few I use. Then there's all the data I've personally collected.

More so becauce I am getting a huge range of densities across various sources...

Yes, wood is really variable and few places give you the dispersion (standard deviation). You never know whether the bit that was tested was stiff/soft or dense or not relative to the mean. The classic is the Bunya stiffness figure in Bootle, which has to be a misprint because it is so far removed from anything I've tested. That's why, as I keep on saying, it is so important to measure the properties of the piece in your hands.

If you're considering a wood for a top wood, a good first indicator is its sound radiation coefficient, SQRT(E/rho^3). 10 is a reasonable lower level cut-off. Anything above 15 is exceptional. Good radiata scrapes in ~10. Good Engelmann and WRC routinely come in in the 14's.

[nnickusa]

Trevor, are you sure you're not drunk? I didn't understand any of that.....

OOPS, Sorry, that's me again.....

[Nick]

It is not inconceivable that we are growing the same species and getting different densities . Density to a large extent being a measure of cell wall thickness , particularly in the late wood . Differing climates and soil types could well affect the difference . Studies in .N.Z with Thuja plicata have definitively produced this result , unfortunately with a corresponding drop off in strength / stiffness in an already light / somewhat weak wood. There is also a possibility of poor or limited genetics in cultivated trees here.

The NZ version looks a bit darker than your split billet shot Pete, more of a tan brown colour (Probably due to your observation of different growing conditions), I'll post a picture of the stuff I have if you are interested and if anybody would like to do either a side by side comparison or measure it's (the NZ version) properties as it sounds like our version would be a little stronger & able to carry out the tasks expected from a top, I'd be only too glad to post some of mine over the ditch, I've got more than I'd ever use, my workmate was rather generous and gave me two rather long boards.

[curly]

Most of the macro I've milled has been a honey golden colour , not entirely dissimilar to N.Z. Kauri .
I did a salvage job on a row of urban trees recently that had washes of pink through them , almost what you would expect of a fruitwood like Plum .

As to Liam's point of why would we pursue 'new" timbers when there is spruce and cedar available , it's a good point . In my work I'd say it's curiosity to begin with . This all might sound a bit high fallutin but in my job as a specialty sawmiller I'm always aiming to produce timber for the highest end use . It best respects the trees life to make beautiful , enduring objects from it .
It also comes down to a genuine belief that it might well work . I am handling timber in the weight and stiffness range to be possible . It is beautiful ( which is more than you can say for most Bunya ) which helps . Like Kauri it doesn't exhibit obvious growth rings which means 80 to 100 year trees can produce timber without pajama stripes , broad annual growth rings . The evenness of texture ( due to a lack of late wood cell wall thickening ) ,is a real benefit in working the timber . If we can find soundboards in an 80 year tree that's an obvious ethical advantage over 700 yr Spruce or 1500 yr Cedar . Not that i'm knocking them , really I'm just trying to do the best i can with the logs available to me .

Won't be too long and I'll have some of that split billet stuff dry . I'll pop some photos up then , maybe i will add a density and MOE . Unfortunately I'm not set up for more complicated measurements . Might have to farm that out to some of the good folks here .

I'd be great to extend the trial Nick , if we increase the sample size then we will produce more reliable results .
Pete

[liam_fnq]

I certainly think it's worth while to search out alternative timbers, it's just that if they don't stack up, I won't pretend that they do.

As I said, cypress certainly floats my boat for back and sides.

[lauburu]

Most of the macro I've milled has been a honey golden colour , not entirely dissimilar to N.Z. Kauri .

Very true. Macrocarpa is sometimes called "poor man's kauri" and I must admit I've wrongly identified fine samples of macrocarpa as new growth kauri. Ooops.

A couple of instrument builders I know have used macrocarpa very successfully in the building the cases of harpsichords and portative organs.
Miguel

[Gerry Coon]

Thanks Pete. That would have been me. Still in progress and still intend to use the Cypress you sent me. I've had a run through with a violin and a couple of little 3 string upright box basses in the lead up to the double bass. Nearly ready now. I'll keep you posted as to the results. It will be my first one so I don't expect to get up with the symphony. I might be able to hang around with a bit of Willie Dixon though.

Cheers.

Gerry.

[P Bill]

Thanks Pete. That would have been me. Still in progress and still intend to use the Cypress you sent me. I've had a run through with a violin and a couple of little 3 string upright box basses in the lead up to the double bass. Nearly ready now. I'll keep you posted as to the results. It will be my first one so I don't expect to get up with the symphony. I might be able to hang around with a bit of Willie Dixon though.

Cheers.

Gerry.

It would almost be quicker to make a list of the classic Chicago repertoire Willie Dixon didn't write.

[Trevor Gore]

I'd love to know your source for density stats Trevor .

Just realised, Pete, that you may have been asking where, specifically, I got the density numbers for macro from. They came from the LMI catalogue. Both macro and sempervirens are separately quoted as 430-500kg/m^3. However in a different place in the same catalogue macro is quote at 400-480kg/m^3. That's stats for you! I think it's safe to say (as Brian does) that at least for the native woods, they are pretty similar, in general, in this regard.

[JJ model]

I would love to have a set and try it on my guitar!
I hate to waste wood.
I uses all hardwood ( 100% ) on my guitars

[cembalo]

I am a harpsichord and 'historic' piano maker and plan to buy a decent bandsaw to cut veneer for my pianos. I am considering resawing timber to sell to guitar makers to help pay for the machine and tungsten tipped blades, had in mind macrocarpa. Someone was asking if it worked for guitar tops. Many years ago I built a small Italian harpsichord from macrocarpa, sides mouldings and soundboard , it was succesful and players liked the tone , I still have it. Interestingly the bottom is made from quartered Sitka spruce.