How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

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trautsman
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How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by trautsman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:26 pm

Hi Can someone answer this question for me. How can America and Canada freely buy and sell Brazilian rosewood and the true Mahoganies Sweitenia macophylla and mahagoni within the states but we can't seem to get any through the borders,seems one rule for the state and another for the rest of the world.

your thought or could someone explain this
trautsman
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Nick
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by Nick » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:10 pm

trautsman wrote:Hi Can someone answer this question for me. How can America and Canada freely buy and sell Brazilian rosewood and the true Mahoganies Sweitenia macophylla and mahagoni within the states but we can't seem to get any through the borders,seems one rule for the state and another for the rest of the world.

your thought or could someone explain this
trautsman
Because the woods you speak of are listed as endangered species controlled by the Cities agreement, too long winded to fully explain it here but google it if you are keen or have not cited it yet. And as such, cannot be exported across overseas borders, older stuff (milled or machined into something before the document passed into law) can, but still needs to be accompanied by legal documentation which is expensive and time consuming as you have to prove that the timber was old enough from a time when it wasn't a protected species.
Because Brazil and Honduras (where the true mahoganies are from) are in south and central America, technically they haven't crossed any overseas borders so the stuff is readily available to the yanks, a bugger I know but thems the breaks.
There are some on here like Pete Coombes or John (woodrat) that will be able to answer this better than I have as they are fully conversant with Cities matters so they may chip in to correct me or plump out what I've said.
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by trautsman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:26 pm

Still doesn't really address biaisness on the North American side. So they can buy and sell within the market of the States of free trade with Canada and not have to do the paper work,but If I wanted to buy some I have to jump through hoops .I would like to buy some Brazilain rosewood or some Hondurain Mahogany and freely be able to source it and not have a piece of paper travel with it where ever it goes.Just looks unfair to me.Look on Ebay how freely you can buy the B/R I doubt whether it would make it to NZ if I bought a set.Or have I got it wrong.
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:58 pm

trautsman wrote:Still doesn't really address biaisness on the North American side. So they can buy and sell within the market of the States of free trade with Canada and not have to do the paper work,but If I wanted to buy some I have to jump through hoops .I would like to buy some Brazilain rosewood or some Hondurain Mahogany and freely be able to source it and not have a piece of paper travel with it where ever it goes.Just looks unfair to me.Look on Ebay how freely you can buy the B/R I doubt whether it would make it to NZ if I bought a set.Or have I got it wrong.
Trautsman

They cant buy your Paua abalone without going through similar hoops.

The trade is restricted because it's simply not available any more. Millions of dead Elephants are crying because of the lack of border control and laws in the past.

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by trautsman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:11 pm

I can send paua freely to the states without restrictions,as long as its clean ,no meat or seaweed on it ,it can be sent. I see that Christian Drury is selling guitars with Paua seedlings in the rosettes in the USA and made of Kauri.
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by Eric Scheper » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:10 pm

I thought the only stuff available in the US is the stuff that's been there since before 1992 or whenever the BR was added to the CITES list because it is illegal to import or export the wood. It's just trapped there as far as I can reckon.

But at least they recently said they wouldn't be seizing personal instruments if you happen to be traveling with a guitar made of BR.

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by Eric Scheper » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Also, the paua is a Lacey Act issue not a CITES issue, if I remember correctly.

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by peter.coombe » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:44 pm

Paua certainly is a Lacy Act issue, nothing to do with CITES becasue it is not listed on CITES.

Brazilian Rosewood Dalbergia nigra (BRW) is listed on CITES Appendix 1. Appendix 1 contains critically endangered species (i.e. species in imminent danger of extinction), so it ranks together with tigers, rhinos etc. It is illegal to import or export any form of Brazilian Rosewood across international borders of countries that have signed the CITES treaty without the relevant CITES paperwork for both importing and exporting countries. Thus you need CITES paperwork for Brazilian Rosewood in a guitar, guitar sets, furniture or raw wood, if you want to take it across an international border. It is legal to send BRW across state borders, so it can be sent anywhere within the USA so long as it is already in the USA. The USA is a big country, there was lots of BRW in the USA in 1992 when it was listed on CITES and there is some of it left. Not only that, but there are a couple of companies that import BRW into the US legally. This wood comes from old stumps in Brazil and does have the CITES paperwork. That is the legal wood, and I am sure there is plenty of illegal wood that has been smuggled in, and fake CITES paperwork.

You can buy BRW in Australia, but it is difficult to find, there is very little left from before 1992, the quality is often poor, and guitar sets are expensive. You can also import BRW into Australia from the US, but you will need to get an import permit and you will need the CITES paperwork. The exporter will need the same paperwork to export from the USA.

Honduras or Brazilian Mahogany Swietenia macrophylla, or bigleaf mahogany from South America is listed on CITES Appendix 2. Thus mahogany in finished articles such as a guitar is ok, but rough sawn wood (i.e. guitar sets or neck blanks) is not ok. Swietenia macrophylla was originally listed because of rampant illegal logging, fraud and corruption in Brazil. A lot of Brazilian rainforest destruction is due to the Mahogany loggers. They start the destruction and then others follow the loggers. The story makes interesting reading.

So, BRW and Mahogany in the USA is mostly old stock that is getting more expensive and rarer. There are plenty of US based guitar makers complaining about how diffcult it is to get Honduras Mahogany nowadays. You can still get it in Australia, but that is from old stock as well so is difficult but not impossible to find.

The situation is not really all that different in the US as it is here in Australia. It is just that the US is so much bigger and thus there is a much bigger market.

To be honest, I don't have a lot of sympathy with people bleating on about non availablity and/or expense of BRW. Habitat destruction and over exploitation has just about wiped all the living trees off the planet, forever. It might not be there for our children and grand children.
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by lauburu » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:59 pm

I doubt whether it would make it to NZ if I bought a set.Or have I got it wrong.
A few years ago before I knew about such things as CITES, I bought a OOO BRW back and sides off Ebay. It arrived here (NZ) labelled Brazilian Ironwood. I was somewhat pissed off so took it to a luthier I knew for his opinion. He confirmed it was, to the best of his knowledge, BRW. Looks like there are ways to get around the system.
Still haven't used it. I'm waiting until my luthiery skills are up to the standard of the materials I'm using. At the rate I'm improving, I'll be bequeathing it in my will.
Miguel

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by woodrat » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:08 pm

Hi Trautsman, As Nick said I do have some experience with CITES and legally importing and exporting BRW and Mahogany. By necessity I looked into it when I bought a piece of furniture that was made of Brazilian RW to make a guitar out of. I wanted to take said guitar to the UK and also I sent Nick a couple of sets of BRW uke trim (Hi Nick!) I found that an easy process because I had all of what usually makes the process difficult....Documentation to provide provenience of the wood. That was the number 1 difficulty that the Australian CITES authority had with the issuing of export and import licenses.
Mahogany is on a different Appendix to BRW so the restrictions are different. Mahogany (Switenia) is controlled in its export when it is in the form of logs, veneer and sawn boards...pretty much all mahogany....thats why I decided to look into the feasibility of reclaiming from furniture because there is no restriction on mahogany in the form of finished goods....ie antiques and the like.

John

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by trautsman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Hi Wood rat,I here what you are saying.I have seen a guy that is exporting useable furniture from Brazil,like bed heads and table tops and the like.
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by woodrat » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:30 am

Yes I have seen him too Trautman...he is on eBay and has username orpheoarte. I dont know if he just ships them or jumps through the CITES hoops for you. I would suspect that he might just post them off mostly to people in the US I would say. I would be asking him some serious questions before I bought from him....

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by DarwinStrings » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:33 am

When I was in Sydney recently I went to Trend Timber and they still had a two bits of BRW that I saw. One bit you may have got a few guitar sets out of (backsawn). The small bit he had was about 400mm x 150mm x 40mm and was full of cracks, labeled at $900. The best solid bit you might get out of it would have been around 25 x 25 x 300, so I got the impression they would rather keep it as a museum piece.

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by loudkenny » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:35 pm

I know this is my first post, but you gotta start somewhere...

Since Gibson Guitar got raided awhile back, most people in my part of the US are very afraid of what recently imported woods their guitars are really made of. I know people who are searching estate sales or antique stores looking for mahogany and other hard to find woods.

At least nobody is getting their instruments confiscated like in Europe... yet.

ken

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by woodrat » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:14 pm

loudkenny wrote:I know this is my first post, but you gotta start somewhere...

Since Gibson Guitar got raided awhile back, most people in my part of the US are very afraid of what recently imported woods their guitars are really made of. I know people who are searching estate sales or antique stores looking for mahogany and other hard to find woods.

At least nobody is getting their instruments confiscated like in Europe... yet.

ken
G'day Loudkenny and Welcome to the forum...

I am a bit surprised that Mahogany is hard to find in the States...it is certainly hard to find here but as Peter Coombe said it is around if you look for it. Personally I just saw up the antiques....:) :twisted:

John
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by loudkenny » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:43 am

'Mahogany' is relatively easy to find in the US. Real Good Mahogany isn't. :(

ken

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by woodrat » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:13 pm

DarwinStrings wrote:When I was in Sydney recently I went to Trend Timber and they still had a two bits of BRW that I saw. One bit you may have got a few guitar sets out of (backsawn). The small bit he had was about 400mm x 150mm x 40mm and was full of cracks, labeled at $900. The best solid bit you might get out of it would have been around 25 x 25 x 300, so I got the impression they would rather keep it as a museum piece.

Jim
Hi Jim....maybe that is Trends religious relic....was it is a gold embossed case? :) Did they say..."no we cant show you the BRW but we can show you a painting of it! " LOL

...the story that I have heard is that Trend had quite a bit of it (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) and that is the last remaining bit of that original lot they had as every luthier and his dog had picked through and over it many many times...the best bits are long gone and turned into something else...hopefully nice guitars...
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by peter.coombe » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:38 am

I was at Trend in 1995 and picked through their BRW. I crawled all around their shed lloking for any good pieces that might have been missed. They did have quite a bit of it, but it was mostly very poor quality. Most of it was from small trees with quite a bit of sapwood, but they did have some big pieces. Trouble was, the big pieces were full of splits, and many of the other pieces had wormholes or were badly burnt. I did find a couple of pieces that were usable for mandolin sized thingies, and still have most of it. What is left at Trend would be left over from what I picked over.
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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by DarwinStrings » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:01 am

Yep John as Peter says, they did have what was from memory a handful of cubic metres. I had a look at the stack in the old shed about 1993 and it was about the same as Peter remember it, mainly sap, worm hole (big worm hole like someone hit it with w 3/4 inch forstner bit) and splits, I remember thinking I would have a hard time finding a 1/4 sawn fret board. The large bit they still have there looked lots better than what was sitting on the floor 20 years ago but it looks like they really don't want to part with that either as I would have had to re-mortgage the house to buy it. The funny thing for me is they there is still a part of me that would like to build with it even though I know I can build just as well without it.

Jim
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Jim Schofield

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by Crafty Fox » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:13 pm

I got some BRW from a yard in Melbourne in '91. Can't remember the name of the supplier since I was staying at a mate's place who happened to be a cabinet-maker and took me round all the good woody places. Anyway, for some reason I stored it in the roof of my home but didn't retrieve it after my marriage bust up. A couple of years ago I went to do some carpentry work for the current owner and asked if I could have a look for the wood. He was OK about that and when I described it ( I didn't find it) he seemed to recall cutting it up for some insignificant job!!! It was rough-sawn and didn't look like much, probably thought it was an old bit of jarrah.
Ken

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Re: How come Amercia can freely sell brazilian rosewood

Post by woodrat » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:02 pm

Crafty Fox wrote:I got some BRW from a yard in Melbourne in '91. Can't remember the name of the supplier since I was staying at a mate's place who happened to be a cabinet-maker and took me round all the good woody places. Anyway, for some reason I stored it in the roof of my home but didn't retrieve it after my marriage bust up. A couple of years ago I went to do some carpentry work for the current owner and asked if I could have a look for the wood. He was OK about that and when I described it ( I didn't find it) he seemed to recall cutting it up for some insignificant job!!! It was rough-sawn and didn't look like much, probably thought it was an old bit of jarrah.
Ken....thats a sad story....it probably ended up as part of the edging around his veggie garden!
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