Acoustic body

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Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Sat May 17, 2014 10:45 am

Been chatting with a couple acoustic makers lately about some projects they were working on, and we got talking about efficiency. You know, jigs, scheduling, etc etc, to make their products faster and more accurate. Im working with them on their marketing, but you know how it is... you get sidetracked talking about anything and everything :)

The thing that blew me away though, was the time difference between the two, in regards to making a body "box". No lacquer, just the body, all ready to fit a neck.

Everything else they seemed to be pretty much on par with each other time wise, but when it came to the body, one maker spent four times longer than the other. Both have more than 70 instruments under their belt, and are full time luthiers. Cutaway dread style, plastic binding, rosewood back and sides.

So, I thought that was an interesting discussion... lets see what others have found? How long do YOU spend making the box?

I used to do time analysis when building. Break the guitar up into a number of sections, then break those sections down into smaller chunks, and time myself doing each bit. When I first started doing that, I realised I was much more efficient at certain things, and much slower at others, than I thought I would be. That helped me adjust my pricing structure, and even the order in which certain sections are built. It was definitely worth the time to conduct this. Then, you can also see at what point the "production jigs" are more efficient than not. For example, there are some jigs I use that are great time savers, but only when doing five or more guitars. Less than that means its easier to just do it by hand.

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by simso » Sat May 17, 2014 11:49 am

Perry, making the "Box" as we will call it, can be incredibly fast or incredibly slow

We hobby builders are different to commercial builders, as you are aware, commercially we are talking 100s per week, hobby builders maybe one per week, or per month or per year.

I can see how its possible to make a closed box in about 3-4hrs, maybe even less, but this involves many commercially setup jigs.

Let me give an example

To make a top, we "myself included"

Joint the wood, sand and thickness the jointed wood, hand shape the braces, fit the braces with a deck, sound out the board, scallop the braces away, setup a jig to etch the rosette, then carve away the rosette recess and then wolla we have a rough made top, approx time easily 4-8hrs of time

In a commercial shop, I would envisage the same process as follows, to joint the wood, it would be achieved by placing the two pieces onto slow spinning fine gritted surface about 3 minutes of sanding, then the two pieces would be clamped and vacuum sealed under heat, so 10-15 minutes it could be reworked, it would be sanded to an exact thickness on a machine with preset height of say 3mm, it would then be drill pressed for the rosette with a dedicated cutter, literally 20 seconds to cut the rosette. The braces would be cut on a table saw, on a dedicted jig, about 10 minutes, so could be done during the jointing drying time,, then you would use a vacuum clamp press with alignment pieces for the braces, which would take maybe 3-4 minutes to align and then clamp under vacuum and heat. One finished top in theory could be achieved in about 20 minutes in a commercial setup

The key to success is machines set and made for an exact specific purpose, not to be adjusted, just to do one job

How do I know this, couple of years back, I had to draw up a bank proposal as I wanted to make acoustic guitars on a commercial scale, compete with the likes of cole clark and maton, but be west Australian based, we had to develop a business plan and building schematic layout to show how we would achieve this, the loan for the building and all required machinery was in excess of 4 mill, we needed a factory floor for manufacturing of 720 square feet, and then you need facilitys for drying and storing wood , with a minimum of six months wood to be stored in advance of manufacturing, we based the requirements on the minimum amount of guitars needed to stay afloat and meet overheads, this worked out to be 37 guitars a week, which were to retail at just under 1000 aud so this equaled another requirement of 225 sqm, after nutting out the figures and loan repayments and so forth, the risks were to great, so I ended up backing out, but we spent a lot of time researching and developing the process to see if we could do it.

If you had the property and the funds to setup, then a single person enterprise could still achieve this with a healthy profit, but the trick is a single machine per build step, with no setting up or alteration of jigs as required

Steve
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Sat May 17, 2014 12:18 pm

The funny thing is, both these guys have the same setup in regards to machinery and tools. They were within an hour of each other for building necks, lacquering, sanding, setup, etc. but building the box was a massive difference. Both are putting out a similar number of instruments a year at the same price ($3000+ usd), but one has orders flowing in at the same rate as production, the other is sitting around waiting for orders (the faster box maker of the two).

Both are around the 70-80 guitars built. Both in the same general vicinity, both do no store sales. Both started building and progressed to full time around the same year. Almost identical businesses except for the production of the 'box'.

Obviously mass production and hobby builders are at two opposite ends of the spectrum, which is why I asked here. We have hobby builders and those that build full time. But I don't see anyone mass producing 100+ guitars a year.

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by simso » Sat May 17, 2014 2:50 pm

Nah, and unlikely for it too happen as well perry.

100 acoustic guitars a year is two guitars a week, the equipment to turn a one man shop into two commercially saleable guitars per week, is almost commercial scale setup of machinery

The financial outlay to set yourself up to be efficient time wise can scare a lot of people. We all can do the job with simple tools and minimal machinery, but if the financial outlay is put in place to set a dedicated machine to each process then build time can be expedited, and the above situation is most probably do-able, I would imagine its possible to be able to do 4 acoustic guitars a week in a one man operation if space and machinery was not an issue
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Nick » Sun May 18, 2014 11:21 am

Maybe time is related to quality? I do a lot of 'extra' things inside the box that take time, not necessarily secret add on sort of stuff but just making sure everything fits accurately and well, e.g somebody could do their x joint in ten minutes tops, sure it may have a few gaps but they don't care, job done where as I could spend an hour or so getting this one part as near perfect as I can. I like to make sure the inside of the box is as clean and well executed as the outside so I take my time, cleaning glue squeeze out up and smoothing things as it sounds like your second guy does, the first guy maybe reflected in the ten minute x joint scenario "you won't see it so what's the point?". I like to believe that when people are laying out 3 G+ on a guitar that these little 'touches' are taken note of and why your first guy is struggling to make sales, you don't want to look in the sound hole and see great globs of excess glue running down a side or a gap on the x join, well I don't anyway.He (the first guy) would be the person that would gain some benefit from a properly jigged and tooled setup as quality can be repetitively built in to each box.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by kiwigeo » Sun May 18, 2014 12:25 pm

Nick wrote:Maybe time is related to quality?
That's pretty much the first thing that I thought of..
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by rocket » Sun May 18, 2014 4:35 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Nick wrote:Maybe time is related to quality?
That's pretty much the first thing that I thought of..
Hmm,,,, and i can only build one instrument a year!!!!
Rod
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Tue May 20, 2014 12:27 pm

Ive seen both their work, ultra clean. And like I said, both are within an hour of each other for ALL other aspects, combined: neck, fretting, neck joint, assembly, setup, etc etc etc.

So, back to the original question, how long does it take YOU?

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by rocket » Tue May 20, 2014 6:17 pm

Bout 175 hours to complete an archtop box inc.binding and recurve, this is a conservative estimate.
Cheers,,

Rod.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by simso » Tue May 20, 2014 7:42 pm

I teach acoustic guitar building, we budget 40 hrs, comes pretty close to that on most of the builds i do with them.

By myself, I'm guessing about 30 for a typical Martin style dread.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Tue May 20, 2014 8:51 pm

rocket wrote:Bout 175 hours to complete an archtop box inc.binding and recurve, this is a conservative estimate.
Cheers,,

Rod.
Ok, now I'm curious... if you ONLY had to carve a top, how long does it take, and what tools do YOU use? Just the top... not the back of the top... assume its a solid body.

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by rocket » Tue May 20, 2014 9:59 pm

Having joined the halves and cut the outline to carve the outer arching will take me about 8 to 10 hours using, drill press, arbourtech Carver, finger planes, scrapers.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Wed May 21, 2014 7:50 pm

Wow!!

Go buy yourself a grinder with a 40 grit sanding disc. Rough carve takes 15 minutes max. 5-10 minutes to clean up that carve with a 120 disc, then go to the orbital for ten minutes to get it up to 240 grit.

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by kiwigeo » Wed May 21, 2014 8:08 pm

Ormsby Guitars wrote:Wow!!

Go buy yourself a grinder with a 40 grit sanding disc. Rough carve takes 15 minutes max. 5-10 minutes to clean up that carve with a 120 disc, then go to the orbital for ten minutes to get it up to 240 grit.
Wow....I wonder why Jimmy Daquisto and other famous archtop builders never worked their tops using this method!! They obviously didn't know what they were doing :shock:
Martin

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by rocket » Wed May 21, 2014 8:13 pm

This method works for me ok, i know it's a bit slow but i"m not working to a price, even when i've quoted a customer the cost of the finished article it still doesn't matter to me how long it takes to build as long as the finished article is 100% quality and my customer is a happy one :D :D
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by simso » Wed May 21, 2014 8:22 pm

I do think some consideration needs to be given to whether this is your bread and butter or sideline.

Example, my old car, has had me spend numerous hrs/wks/mths/yrs on it, if I paid a professional to do a single rust repair spot, they would likely have it done in the hr, where as me I would spend 4-5 hrs easily on the same job.

If a person repairs guitars for a living, it's highly likely they will spend more time building a guitar than someone who builds for a living, someone who does accounting for a living will likely spend more time building a guitar even if he has built many, in comparison again to a person that builds full time.

When something becomes a sole source of income, then short cuts / greater efficiency is sourced

I'm curious in your above examples perry, whether both are sole builders, or sole repairers or they do both

Steve
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by rocket » Wed May 21, 2014 8:34 pm

Clearly i'm not a professional luthier trying to make my living carving guitars by hand, i'm just a dude who loves building these instruments and trying to be as good at it as i can. I cover my costs and make a bit extra, so far i'm way in front on cost, i don't count my time except that it's time well spent.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by kiwigeo » Wed May 21, 2014 8:55 pm

I have a day job that takes me away from home for up to a month at a time. This makes my building very much a stop/go affair and this adds significantly to build time.....upon each return home from work it takes me at least a week to get back up to speed and re-familiarise myself with a build.

A basic guitar takes me about 200 hours......at least half of that is spent on the body.
Martin

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by needsmorecowbel » Wed May 21, 2014 9:28 pm

To answer this question I must recall an analogy from a self
help book written by master luthier Michael Thames:

In which he writes:

"To me, making an acoustic guitar is like making love
Sometimes you want to know how long it took you,
Other times you don't really want to know, or wish you didn't...
Sometimes it doesn't seem appropriate to use a stopwatch and can kill the mood...believe me...I know

Regardless I find it is an intimate, enjoyable and overall rewarding experience that every keen woodworker should attempt.
Except Australians...Pack of Wankers"


An excerpt from "It's okay to be me?" by Michael Thames
Published by Random House

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by ozwood » Wed May 21, 2014 10:01 pm

To answer this question I must recall an analogy from a self
help book written by master luthier Michael Thames:

In which he writes:

"To me, making an acoustic guitar is like making love
Sometimes you want to know how long it took you,
Other times you don't really want to know, or wish you didn't...
Sometimes it doesn't seem appropriate to use a stopwatch and can kill the mood...believe me...I know

Regardless I find it is an intimate, enjoyable and overall rewarding experience that every keen woodworker should attempt.
Except Australians...Pack of Wankers"

An excerpt from "It's okay to be me?" by Michael Thames
Published by Random House
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rolf :rolf :rolf :rolf :rolf :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

It takes me less time than it used to, but longer than it should. A small guitar takes less time than a large one , but more time than a uke.
sometimes I want it to take longer, because I am enjoying the build, and sometimes the finish can't come quick enough because I am so keen to hear it.
But mostly it does not matter because like most of us it's just a self sustaining hobby that is a welcome respite from the madness of deadlines, due dates, and the "I want it yesterday" crazy world we live in. so I have never realy timed it, and probably won't .

I do cheaper, better, faster and leaner all day at work , I manage DIFOT , "Delivery In Full On Time", due dates , promised dates, labour efficiency, cost variances and all that shit, every day, if I have to apply that to my guitar making I'm pretty sure I will lose the passion for it real quick.

Just Sayin ! :D

Cheers,
Paul .

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Wed May 21, 2014 10:09 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Ormsby Guitars wrote:Wow!!

Go buy yourself a grinder with a 40 grit sanding disc. Rough carve takes 15 minutes max. 5-10 minutes to clean up that carve with a 120 disc, then go to the orbital for ten minutes to get it up to 240 grit.
Wow....I wonder why Jimmy Daquisto and other famous archtop builders never worked their tops using this method!! They obviously didn't know what they were doing :shock:

ahh, thanks for the sarcasm.

Forgive me for sharing an idea that cuts 8 hours of hard labour from a build.

There is ZERO 'romance' in spending 8 hours doing something which is achieved in 40 minutes. Want to finish it off with one inch long 'luthier' planes? Go for it.

If some of you guys took advice from those making a living from this trade, you might learn something. Regardless of the actual type of instruments we build.
Last edited by Ormsby Guitars on Wed May 21, 2014 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by Ormsby Guitars » Wed May 21, 2014 10:12 pm

simso wrote:
I'm curious in your above examples perry, whether both are sole builders, or sole repairers or they do both

Steve
Both are full time builders, with very limited repairs/setups. Ie: under a couple hours a week

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Re: Acoustic body

Post by simso » Wed May 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Then it's very surprising, that they are not closer on there box completion times.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by rocket » Wed May 21, 2014 10:38 pm

Ormsby Guitars wrote:
kiwigeo wrote:
Ormsby Guitars wrote:Wow!!

Go buy yourself a grinder with a 40 grit sanding disc. Rough carve takes 15 minutes max. 5-10 minutes to clean up that carve with a 120 disc, then go to the orbital for ten minutes to get it up to 240 grit.
Wow....I wonder why Jimmy Daquisto and other famous archtop builders never worked their tops using this method!! They obviously didn't know what they were doing :shock:

ahh, thanks for the sarcasm.

Forgive me for sharing an idea that cuts 8 hours of hard labour from a build.

There is ZERO 'romance' in spending 8 hours doing something which is achieved in 40 minutes.

If some of you guys took advice from those making a living from this trade, you might learn something. Regardless of the actual type of instruments we build.
I'm sorry Perry but when it comes to guitars and motivation needed to build one, you and i are on different planets, i wish you well in your effort to reduce the time it takes to knock one out!
Rod.
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Re: Acoustic body

Post by kiwigeo » Thu May 22, 2014 12:00 am

Ormsby Guitars wrote:

ahh, thanks for the sarcasm.

Forgive me for sharing an idea that cuts 8 hours of hard labour from a build.

There is ZERO 'romance' in spending 8 hours doing something which is achieved in 40 minutes. Want to finish it off with one inch long 'luthier' planes? Go for it.

If some of you guys took advice from those making a living from this trade, you might learn something. Regardless of the actual type of instruments we build.
It wasn't sarcasm......the question as to why Daquisto and others don't use the method you've proposed was a serious one. I'm sure other members are at least asking the same question in their minds.

If you really want to minimize the time spent building your guitars and at the same time maximize your profits why don't you just outsource everything to a factory in China? o:)
Martin

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