New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

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New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Robbie O'Brien » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:33 am

Here is the latest Luthier Tips du Jour video - The topic is how to accelerate the break in process on an instrument.
This video as well as all my other videos are available via my website http://www.obrienguitars.com/videos, LMI's website or on Youtube.
Enjoy!

youtu.be/
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:29 am

OK Robbie....enough of the Tonerite sales spiel....let's hear what YOU think about the Tonerite device :)

The Tonerite website contains alot of sales hype and to be honest that's all I'm getting from your video. The Tonerite people need to put up some cold hard evidence to support their claims. I want to see plots of frequency response before and after use of the device. I want to see numbers and plots.

Some interesting reading here on Tonerite: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... p?t=163754
Martin

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Robbie O'Brien » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:02 am

kiwigeo wrote:OK Robbie....enough of the Tonerite sales spiel....let's hear what YOU think about the Tonerite device :)

The Tonerite website contains alot of sales hype and to be honest that's all I'm getting from your video. The Tonerite people need to put up some cold hard evidence to support their claims. I want to see plots of frequency response before and after use of the device. I want to see numbers and plots.

Some interesting reading here on Tonerite: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... p?t=163754
Let me start by saying I have no interest in Tonerite as a business venture. I do not represent them nor do I benefit in any way from their sales. My objective is to put out information to the masses and therefore allow folks to draw their own conclusions. With that said, I do have a Tonerite device in my shop and feel that my instruments as well as other people's instruments have benefited from it. I will allow you to draw your own conclusion.
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:05 pm

No problems Robbie....in the video you quite clearly let the Tonerite people have their say and there's no implication that you have any interest financial or otherwise in the product. That said the product is controversial and as I stated above the people producing the device need to front up with some facts and figures to support their claims.

It would be a worthwhile exercise for someone to make two identical guitars (if that's possible) and do some testing on the instruments before and after using a Tonerite device to "age" one of the instruments.
Martin

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by jeffhigh » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:04 pm

Surely 1% of the marketing budget of this device could have been allocated to doing a scientific before and after test using a mechanical strumming device and spectrum analysis.
All the "evidence" so far is anecdotal and relies on the player comparing the treated guitar with his memory of the before guitar, or using uncontrolled recordings where playing technique cannot be confirmed to be the same.

Scientific evidence would put the sceptics to rest and convert it from a faith based product to a proven product.
But the only scientific research we have seen was third party and was rather dismissive (we discussed this here a few months ago)
I can only conclude that the manufacturer does not care to test his product, or has tested it and found the results unsupportive.

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Craig Bumgarner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:25 am

Speaking of breaking in guitars, opening up, etc. and numbers & FRC, has anyone done such a study for instruments that have been played in naturally? Since I've started keeping deflection and FRC plots I've looked at maybe three of my guitars and one of a another builder, a couple years after they were built and the top deflection, monopole mobility and FRC were all considerably different than when they were new. My highly subjective opinion was that all these guitars sounded better than when they were new. So something is happening (like I'm subject to wishful thinking) but I make no conclusions as to what. Humidity, temperature, settling, cold creep, limbering upand maybe, just maybe the ever elusive "opening up",

I'd be interested if anyone has seen ANY scientific support for the opening up phenomenon.
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Gsanbrook » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:57 am

Robbie,
I should have warned you. This is a rather tough crowd when it comes to tone-rite. They want PROOF. :D :) :git

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:25 am

Gsanbrook wrote:Robbie,
I should have warned you. This is a rather tough crowd when it comes to tone-rite. They want PROOF. :D :) :git
Yes....I'm "tough" when it comes to forking out money for a product that is being marketed purely on sales hype and anecdotal evidence. As Jeff states how hard could it be to devote a small fraction of the budget to commissioning a few scientific tests to proving that the device works?
Martin

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Dennis Leahy » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:53 pm

IF there really is such a thing as "breaking in" a guitar (I have seen enough personal, anecdotal "evidence" of guitars being quite stiff and relatively unresponsive at first, later being responsive), then it seems like this device (or ANYthing that would vibrate the top), would help.

I can understand that some luthiers would want to quantify "help" (how much? how fast?) but it seems pretty logical that a top that has been vibrated would loosen up a bit. The person that vibrated a top with Tonerite that had already been vibrated with Tonerite (by Tim McKnight) didn't present any evidence that it doesn't work. At best, he presented evidence that once the initial vibration sessions have been performed, it probably does no good to vibrate the top over again.

By the way, I agree that the website is rife with hyperbolic claims and advertising rhetoric. I'm actually not promoting that device, but assume if you somehow vibrate the top of a brand new guitar, that it will break-in more quickly. If someone commissions an instrument, they get it brand new and still "too tight", they just have to have "faith" that it will sound better, later. But, for luthiers that are putting out instruments that are not commissioned, and especially if they will be A-B compared to other (presumably already "opened-up") instruments, then it seems smart to vibrate the top before putting it up for sale.

I remember seeing posts about using a cheap fish tank air pump to do the same thing, but maybe these little high-priced (150 - 170USD) vibrators do a better job. Vibrators! Hey, what about using a vibrating dildo? How much do they cost? And, how long do the batteries last (or can you plug them into a 220V socket? :lol:

{edit} so I looked on Ebay, searching for "vibrator", and of course, I was shocked! They come in so many colors! :shock: :) :D :lol:
But seriously, how about this find: the motors used in vibrators: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-3V-1000RP ... 339a340bb9 That's a lot less than $170.
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:32 pm

See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2447&hilit=toneright for previous discussions including a scientific study which was rather unsupportive of the toneright

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by auscab » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:35 pm

Dennis Leahy wrote:
Hey, what about using a vibrating dildo? How much do they cost? And, how long do the batteries last (or can you plug them into a 220V socket? :lol:

:lol: Yeah Dennis , you can buy ones that plug into the mains power , or you used to be able to , I don't know if they are still available.

A friend told me of her older sister owning a plug into the mains vibrator . The older sister didn't realize that whenever she used the device that it would cause the TV the get weird interference . She couldn't work out how she kept getting caught out :oops:
They would knock on her door asking what she was doing , interference stops.
Go back to watching the telly , interference starts again. :P

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Nick » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:38 pm

auscab wrote: A friend told me of her older sister owning a plug into the mains vibrator . The older sister didn't realize that whenever she used the device that it would cause the TV the get weird interference . She couldn't work out how she kept getting caught out :oops:
They would knock on her door asking what she was doing , interference stops.
Go back to watching the telly , interference starts again. :P
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Dennis Leahy » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:08 pm

Thanks for that anecdote Rob. :lmao Poor girl!

OK, Jeff, thanks. The study (the link in the previous discussion) says vibration is not the variable in "opening up." Maybe it is time (aging, even short-term "aging"?)... or hardening of glue?... or hardening of finish (less damping?) Hard to believe the vibration does nothing at all - my capacity for cognitive dissonance is getting tested with this one!

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by DarwinStrings » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:16 pm

I think in one of the other threads Dennis we established that the ones you are talking about were made for Oboes and Saxophones not guitars.
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:48 pm

Ok guys.....time for a serious discussion on this one. I'm somewhat intrigued about the whole accelerated aging thing and would love to see some studies done on the matter.
Martin

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by charangohabsburg » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:03 pm

kiwigeo wrote:Ok guys.....time for a serious discussion on this one. I'm somewhat intrigued about the whole accelerated aging thing and would love to see some studies done on the matter.
If Rob's friend's older sister has a twin sister who used to watch TV it would be interesting to see them now side by side.
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:12 pm

Dennis Leahy wrote:Thanks for that anecdote Rob. :lmao Poor girl!

OK, Jeff, thanks. The study (the link in the previous discussion) says vibration is not the variable in "opening up." Maybe it is time (aging, even short-term "aging"?)... or hardening of glue?... or hardening of finish (less damping?) Hard to believe the vibration does nothing at all - my capacity for cognitive dissonance is getting tested with this one!

Dennis
Dennis, what I got from the study was that toneright vibration was much much less than that applied to the guitar by playing and that the toneright vibration did not produce significant measurable or player evaluated changes.
The study did not say that playing vibration produced no changes, that was just not the aim of the experiment.

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by Dennis Leahy » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:40 pm

jeffhigh wrote:
Dennis Leahy wrote:Thanks for that anecdote Rob. :lmao Poor girl!

OK, Jeff, thanks. The study (the link in the previous discussion) says vibration is not the variable in "opening up." Maybe it is time (aging, even short-term "aging"?)... or hardening of glue?... or hardening of finish (less damping?) Hard to believe the vibration does nothing at all - my capacity for cognitive dissonance is getting tested with this one!

Dennis
Dennis, what I got from the study was that toneright vibration was much much less than that applied to the guitar by playing and that the toneright vibration did not produce significant measurable or player evaluated changes.
The study did not say that playing vibration produced no changes, that was just not the aim of the experiment.
I admit I didn't read the full text, just the abstract.

And, I just re-read the abstract again... and this thought occurred to me: were all the guitars brand spanking new guitars, or just similar guitars? Were they factory (read, overbuilt) guitars, or hand-made, boutique guitars? {can't you just smell the cognitive dissonance, based on having a difficult time dismissing notions I had already accepted as true?}
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:47 pm

The full text is worth a read

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by needsmorecowbel » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:34 pm

Could be a niche market somewhere in there...
riteofpassage.jpg
riteofpassage.jpg (178.87 KiB) Viewed 13402 times
This thread is rife with innuendo :lol:

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by hooked » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:00 pm

While scanning the web for info some time ago, I came across a luthier who places his finished guitars in a soundproof box with a pick attached to a DC motor. The setup continuously strums the instrument for something like a million strums before they are sold.

Daryl

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by DarwinStrings » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:11 pm

K. Yairi put his finished guitars in a room and played music to them for a duration. There is Frank Sanns who contributes to the AGF and he has a secret method of "aging" a guitar, I vaguely remember him saying something about his process and it seems a bit tonriteish with varying frequencies or something like more guitar specific frequencies. I've not seen much science published by him but will check the internets now.
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by DarwinStrings » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:32 pm

Okay I haven't looked real hard yet but here is a Interview that Frank gives, he suggests his process is measurable and claims a 3 - 5 decibel volume increase as well as a few other favorable tone descriptions.

YOUTUBE link to interview
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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by hooked » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:10 pm

I will make my own........I figure $6.00 wont hurt.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/331400830883 ... 1439.l2649

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Re: New Luthier Tips du Jour video - Accelerating break in

Post by curly » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:54 pm

Another interesting topic is the ageing of timbers and it's possible effect on changing tone . Think of the deceased old master luthier falling off the perch and makers hovering around like blowflies to get their hands on the aged timber . Perhaps some amount of ageing can happen across a year or so of "playing In "
Has anyone come across studies that can quantify the mechanism(s) by which it happens ? Drivers of changing properties beyond simply removing the living trees moisture ? Evaporation of extractives , loss of volatiles , drying and crystalisation of resins and kinos , then the harder to quantify ones such as oxidisation and photosensitivity . Repeated moisture cycling would likely relax the cell walls , including reaction wood stresses from the trees own life in much the same fashion that playing would . Stiffness increases in the drying process of timber , plenty of good data to attest that , but what of stiffness relaxing again , particularly under load .
I've handled some verifiably 100+ year old timber across a range of species and then fresh milled and dried timber of the same . The difference is clear , that lovely powdery dry raspy , scratchy sound ..... Why ?
Pete

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