lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

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Valben
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lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Mon May 21, 2018 1:15 pm

Hi All,
In the attached pic my idea of how to prepare a laminated stock for the armrest.
This idea uses all the cuttings from back & top plates, bend them (you can bend 4 strips at the time) and glue them stacked until the desired depth is achieved.
Using mostly the top material will reduce the overall weight but 2 or 3 strips of harder wood in the stack will increase the stability.
p.s - In the pic the strips are not yet glued, I will rearrange them alternating top & back wood before to proceed further :-)
Cheers
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IMG_20180520_141956.jpg
IMG_20180520_141950.jpg

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kiwigeo
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by kiwigeo » Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 pm

What sort of glue do you plan to use? I'd probably be using epoxy resin (eg Techniglue) as it will fill in any gaps.
Martin

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by blackalex1952 » Mon May 21, 2018 2:31 pm

Good idea. I would like to see a photo of the finished guitar sometime down the track. I make my 'solid' ie laminated liners by hand bending them to fit each other as accurately as possible, then line the inside of the guitar where the liners will sit with packing tape. Then I use hot hide glue to glue them together in situ clamping with 'pegs' for want of a better word...I use the ones available from Supercheap Auto...they are the same as the ones Stewmac sells I believe, and are readily available. After the glue dries I then remove the bindings and the tape (it has to be pretty low tac tape so there is no clean up of the tape glue to do so that the HHG will adhere to the sides). Then I run the liner's lower edge over a rounding over bit on a router table. After that, glue the bindings to the sides. This means a neat job if someone looks inside the instrument. That's what I would do with liners for an edge bevel. Not sure that epoxy is that important, to my mind if voids were an issue, then all liners would be glued that way. Also, if there happen to be alignment issues the HHG can be heated and the laminations can be corrected as HHG will restick to itself. I have found that the bottom edge of the laminated bindings done this way, ie glued in situ to the guitar sides, needs careful attention re alignment. One way around this, as a precaution, is to make the laminations deep enough for sanding on a flat plate along with the sanding on the top edge that happens when fitting the top to end up with the depth that is required on the finished instrument. Cheers! Ross
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by kiwigeo » Mon May 21, 2018 3:23 pm

Not sure if hide glue would be the best glue. Looking at the photo and the number of layers...you can see quite a few sizeable gaps. I use epoxy for the 3 layered solid linings and falcate bracing on my builds...epoxy is usually my choice where there's a high risk of gaps.

Something else I've just noticed....you'll need to address some way of preventing the layers from sliding over each other while the glue is setting.
Martin

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Mon May 21, 2018 3:34 pm

I was planning to use titebond but I have considered the use of a 5 min epoxy. I do not have any experience with hide glue, except the bottled one which I do not think is a good idea anyhow.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will use the epoxy, it dries faster and will allow gluing 2 or 3 strips at the time allowing more precise alignment between the strips.
At the end I should be able to realize a 30x30mm square stock with the exact shape of the lower bout.
P.s. I will use one unglued strip in contact with the inside of the form as a spacer to compensate for the thickness of the side.
Cheers

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by kiwigeo » Mon May 21, 2018 3:45 pm

I wouldn't use 5 minute epoxy...Ive found the quality of the Selly's and other quick epoxies not that great and if you need to do any unplanned adjustments you might find yourself in a bind. The 5 minute stuff also doesn't gap fill as well as the Techniglue. Carbatec stock Techniglue.
Valben wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:34 pm
I was planning to use titebond but I have considered the use of a 5 min epoxy. I do not have any experience with hide glue, except the bottled one which I do not think is a good idea anyhow.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will use the epoxy, it dries faster and will allow gluing 2 or 3 strips at the time allowing more precise alignment between the strips.
At the end I should be able to realize a 30x30mm square stock with the exact shape of the lower bout.
P.s. I will use one unglued strip in contact with the inside of the form as a spacer to compensate for the thickness of the side.
Cheers
Martin

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Allen » Mon May 21, 2018 4:27 pm

So is your plan to shape the arm bevel and not laminate a veneer over it? So what you will see is a stack of laminations much like plywood? If that's the case, your laminations of that stack better be very good as they will be on display to everyone.

If your instead going to laminated a veneer over top of it as is customary, then there are lots better traditional ways of going about this. Far easier too in fact.
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Valben
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Mon May 21, 2018 6:03 pm

Thanks Allen, the idea is to leave the laminate as is but with the plan B of covering it with a veneer in case it won’t look nice. This is just an idea (from someone who has limited experience) to use the scrap pieces laying around. Anyhow I agree with you, a better solution is probably to start with a proper size blank ... much less work .

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by blackalex1952 » Mon May 21, 2018 6:08 pm

Ive found the quality of the Selly's and other quick epoxies not that great and if you need to do any unplanned adjustments you might find yourself in a bind.
Bind is a good choice of word! Potential Dad Joke there!!! :mrgreen:
-Ross
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by colburge » Tue May 22, 2018 7:37 am

kiwigeo wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:45 pm
I wouldn't use 5 minute epoxy...Ive found the quality of the Selly's and other quick epoxies not that great and if you need to do any unplanned adjustments you might find yourself in a bind. The 5 minute stuff also doesn't gap fill as well as the Techniglue. Carbatec stock Techniglue.
Valben wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:34 pm
I was planning to use titebond but I have considered the use of a 5 min epoxy. I do not have any experience with hide glue, except the bottled one which I do not think is a good idea anyhow.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will use the epoxy, it dries faster and will allow gluing 2 or 3 strips at the time allowing more precise alignment between the strips.
At the end I should be able to realize a 30x30mm square stock with the exact shape of the lower bout.
P.s. I will use one unglued strip in contact with the inside of the form as a spacer to compensate for the thickness of the side.
Cheers
I am with Martin, don't use 5 minute epoxy. Get yourself some BoteCote or West Systems. I use BoteCote, and a 500ml bottle will last you a couple of years.

Col

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 pm

Here the laminated block 😉 solid and very light.
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IMG_20180526_112637.jpg

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Andos » Mon May 28, 2018 5:25 pm

Nice one bro - looking good.

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:35 am

Rest bevel block glued in place and shaped.
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IMG_20180604_163127.jpg
IMG_20180604_163048.jpg

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:34 am

Here how it looks after shaping the bevel. It doesn't looks pretty so I will glue on some padauk veneer.
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by lamanoditrento » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:13 am

I agree. It was a good idea though, maybe just needed thinner strips near the SB, or the top contour to follow the substrate contour more. Or may just a more consistent colour scheme with the balance with the rest of the guitar. Anyway, I think it was an experiment and I appreciate you sharing.
Trent

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by simso » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:06 pm

Definetly a veneer, how are you going to transition the edges of the veneer to the top and sides?? binding.

Typically when I modify someones guitar and install a bevel, I use a single piece of wood shaped and hollowed out internally, then its just getting the neat edges that are always a struggle to get right

?? what about using a black epoxy fill over the top, then you can get a high shine black area to contrast against the rest of the guitar.

Steve
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:58 pm

simso wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:06 pm
Definetly a veneer, how are you going to transition the edges of the veneer to the top and sides?? binding.
Two layers of veneer and then bevel edge so underlying layer shows through.....same process as making a scratch plate?
Martin

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:59 pm

Valben wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:34 am
Here how it looks after shaping the bevel. It doesn't looks pretty so I will glue on some padauk veneer.
No it didn't end up looking too hot but bravo for having a go....sometimes we learn more from our "failures" than our successes :)
Martin

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Valben » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:43 pm

Here the result with 1 layer of veneer .... can't say I am really proud of the binding job :?
Attachments
IMG_20180823_081445.jpg
IMG_20180823_081422.jpg
IMG_20180823_081414.jpg
IMG_20180823_081401.jpg
IMG_20180823_081351.jpg
IMG_20180823_081344.jpg

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by WJ Guitars » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:00 pm

Well done! The veneer on the bevel suits the style of the guitar.

Wayne
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by Mark McLean » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:46 pm

Yes, that looks much better than the exposed laminations. I think you hve achieved a good result. We can all drive ourselves crazy noticing the tiny imperfections, but most people won't see them at all. The repeating of the padauk colour in the bevel and in the rosette looks great.

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:42 pm

Not perfect but how many of us have actually reached perfection with a build? I don't think I would have handled this little challenge differently from how you've handled it. You've learned a lot from this build so the next one will be a lot closer to perfection :)
Martin

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by TallDad71 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:41 am

That guitar is lush. Well done.

What are your thoughts on the effects on tonal character when you install a bevel? The reduced surface area must make a negative difference but the increased mass in the sides must make a positive difference. Would you say they balance each other out?
Alan

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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by WJ Guitars » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:40 am

Most of the guitars I build have Streamline Arm Rest Bevels. I have found no noticeable performance or sound quality issues with the slight reduction of the top in the lower bout area. I think the bevel lining increases the stiffness on the the side and the reflection back into the top. I also use laminated lining around the top and bottom of the sides.

Wayne
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Re: lamitated armrest bevel - an idea

Post by WJ Guitars » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:20 pm

Here are some photos of laminated side / bevel linings as mentioned on my previous post and photos of a Streamline arm rest bevel made.

Wayne
https://wjguitars.wixsite.com/mysite-1
Attachments
P3090129.JPG
P3310270.JPG
P4030298.JPG
Bevel Side view.jpg
P6080598.JPG

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