Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Talk about musical instrument construction, setup and repair.

Moderators: kiwigeo, Jeremy D

User avatar
Valben
Kauri
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Valben » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:42 am

I had some strips of Louro Faia (kind of lacewood) and got the idea to use this timber to bind my next project. The result can be seen below:
I thought was funny enough to deserve sharing... :D
Another funny thing is that in the past I have built a Dread shape guitar with Louro Faia back & sides and I did manage to get the sides bent just right : see viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8133&p=87191&hilit=louro#p87191
Attachments
IMG_20181001_220047.jpg

User avatar
Mark McLean
Blackwood
Posts: 660
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:03 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Mark McLean » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:40 pm

Well those pieces just didn't want to bend! You gave it your best shot. It's lucky that you have a plan B (right??). I am sure it will all be OK in the end. You just need some other bindings.

User avatar
Valben
Kauri
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Valben » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:12 am

Yes, plan B is for blackwood binding which bends nicely and will properly pair with the Jarrah back & sides :wink:

User avatar
lamanoditrento
Blackwood
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 9:50 am

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:14 am

Oh wow, I have never seen binding so cracked and faceted. How thick were they and what procedure (temp/water etc) did you use?
Trent

User avatar
Valben
Kauri
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Valben » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:52 am

good question :) I have followed my standard procedure for binding (with little variations according to the timber in use).
Thickness 2.05mm, tape the binding strips and protect them with paper after wetting the wood (wet but not soaked) with a spray bottle containing tap water.
I usually start bending the lower bout at 230F & upper bout at 270F (290F if I have a cutaway), keep heat on until reaching 300-310F max and then remove heat and let it cool down for at least 1hour.
The lesson learn here is that the Louro Faia looks nice but it is not a proper timber for binding job but, I am curious.... has anyone from the forum successfully used Silver-oak, Rewarewa or other Lacewood timber for a binding job ?

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:07 am

Valben wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:52 am
good question :) I have followed my standard procedure for binding (with little variations according to the timber in use).
Thickness 2.05mm, tape the binding strips and protect them with paper after wetting the wood (wet but not soaked) with a spray bottle containing tap water.
I usually start bending the lower bout at 230F & upper bout at 270F (290F if I have a cutaway), keep heat on until reaching 300-310F max and then remove heat and let it cool down for at least 1hour.
The lesson learn here is that the Louro Faia looks nice but it is not a proper timber for binding job but, I am curious.... has anyone from the forum successfully used Silver-oak, Rewarewa or other Lacewood timber for a binding job ?
A few comments/questions:

1. Are you using a heat blanket and form or hand bending on an iron? I'm assuming you're using a blanket. I've found I have more success bending diffuclt woods by hand on an iron.
2. I generally give difficult woods a good soak in the bath prior to bending.
3. Supersoft or fabric softener often helps with difficult woods.
4. I ensure the outside of the bend is supported with a steel slat or a piece of wood while bending.
Martin

User avatar
lamanoditrento
Blackwood
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 9:50 am

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:28 am

kiwigeo wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:07 am

3. Supersoft or fabric softener often helps with difficult woods.
I would be careful with big open grain and supersoft. We had a silky oak side all but disintegrate using a bending iron and supersoft.
Trent

User avatar
Valben
Kauri
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Valben » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:37 am

Hi all, yes I am using a bending form with a heating blanket. I rarely use the bending iron, mainly for touch-ups or when I do not have a bending form.
Yesterday I tried to use the iron on a scrap short pieces of Louro Faia using fabric conditioner and about an hour soak, the result is still not good... may be with more patience I would have succeeded but I found it to be a really stressful job :shock: .
Anyhow, I have no more pieces of this timber laying around so the problem is over :D

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by kiwigeo » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:57 pm

Valben wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:37 am
Hi all, yes I am using a bending form with a heating blanket. I rarely use the bending iron, mainly for touch-ups or when I do not have a bending form.
Yesterday I tried to use the iron on a scrap short pieces of Louro Faia using fabric conditioner and about an hour soak, the result is still not good... may be with more patience I would have succeeded but I found it to be a really stressful job :shock: .
Anyhow, I have no more pieces of this timber laying around so the problem is over :D
I recently spent a week trying to bend some blackwood bindings for a Gore style OM cutaway. I gave up in the end and used some Brazilian Rosewood bindings I found hidden on one of my shelves.....that stuff just bent like butter!!
Martin

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Trevor Gore » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:07 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:57 pm
I recently spent a week trying to bend some blackwood bindings for a Gore style OM cutaway. I gave up in the end and used some Brazilian Rosewood bindings I found hidden on one of my shelves.....that stuff just bent like butter!!
A week???!!! Probably works better if you do it quicker! :wink: :mrgreen:

DSCF3418s.jpg

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:31 pm

Trevor Gore wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:07 pm
A week???!!! Probably works better if you do it quicker! :wink: :mrgreen:
It was you who designed that bldi cutaway OM with that cutaway horn with a radius so tight that the blackwood bindings started trembling in fear whenever I got them close to the mold!!
Martin

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Trevor Gore » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:14 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:31 pm
It was you who designed that bldi cutaway OM with that cutaway horn with a radius so tight that the blackwood bindings started trembling in fear whenever I got them close to the mold!!
Yep, and they just submit to their fate as soon as I point a bending iron at them!

Show 'em who's boss! :D

scripsit
Myrtle
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:04 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by scripsit » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:27 pm

I sort of like having brazillian rosewood bindings.

Mind you, there goes my international touring.

Kym

Dave M
Blackwood
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:44 am
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Dave M » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:18 am

Yes Trevor has caused a fair bit of grief pretty much round the world with that cutaway!
------------------
Dave

User avatar
Valben
Kauri
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Valben » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:06 am

ehehe, now you make me wanting to try the Trevor cutaway, guess who's books will be on the top of my letter to santa this year. :)

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Trevor Gore » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:17 am

Dave M wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:18 am
Yes Trevor has caused a fair bit of grief pretty much round the world with that cutaway!
:D I must have done dozens of those cutaways and never really had a problem. In terms of binding, the figured blackwood and figured sycamore/maple are the easy ones, because the wood is pretty floppy. The tough ones are the bloodwood ones (Brosimum rubescens) because that stuff is so stiff that the bending has to be nigh on perfect, because there is no way you'll pull in any misfit even with filament tape. The stuff just doesn't flex once bent. Here's another blackwood one (from over ten years ago) and a bloodwood one.
DSCF5811s.jpg
DSCF5811s.jpg (102.58 KiB) Viewed 392 times
DSCF1093s.jpg
And here's the instrument of torture. I made it from thick walled aluminium tube, 38mm diameter, 3.2mm wall, squeezed a bit in a (big) vise to form a short flat on it. It has a very similar shape to the "point" of the cutaway, as it happens. It has 500w of heaters in it. More details in the book, of course.
DSCF3550s.jpg

blackalex1952
Blackwood
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:36 pm
Location: North East Victoria

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by blackalex1952 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:31 pm

Trevor, you look pretty close to burning your fingers...I use good quality leather riggers gloves and an apron to do my hand bending on an iron I made then installed eBay Chinese ceramic elements, and an eBay PID controller.I had an aluminium casting works in Port Melbourne pour the aluminium from a craftwood shape I made specifically to do the Selmeroid cutaways. I shaped the first piece of craftwood then kept screwing the subsequent pieces in, using a bandsaw then a pattern following bit to refine, followed by a little sanding and squaring up. .....
Then I refined the aluminium on a belt sander, and drilled 10mm holes for the elements. I also had them pour some aluminium into a couple of pieces of stainless tube which I also drilled and installed the creamic elements in. I used fire cement from the local hardware shop or Bunnings...it's used for sticking new faux asbestos woven door seals into wood heaters. A sparkie gave me an offcut of the fibrous material that electrical switch boards can be custom made from then mounted the whole shebang on some timber which can be clamped to the bench or held in a vise, either vertically or horizontally. The reason I use the apron and gloves is because I was merrily bending away and got a bit hot, only to find that I'd melted the zipper on my jumper permanently closed. :mrgreen: I use a lot of figured plane and Silky oak for my bindings. No problems there. If I have a problem with bending by hand I spritz the wood. Don't even have a bending strap which I'd like but a ceramic element will be before that and a fox style bender, I guess....ahh luxuries! I'm going to try bending some bulloak bindings soon for a tight Selmer style and will of course, report here! I also hand bend solid liners, I have been using Japanese Beech for that but also have some Hawthorn which is related to boxwood. Solid liners are essential for the Selmer style guitars, particularly the tops. The Selmer projects have stalled for a while due to health reasons, winter in the mountains, an OM build, a Gibson L-00 flat top, and numerous restorations and repairs which I have decided not to do anymore... So keen now the warmer weather has returned to get right into the projects, my ones, for me! I'll soon be able to spray again in the warmer weather. It's cold in them thar hills, just below the snowline! Cheers! Ross
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:56 pm

The following will appear on my headstone when I depart this world: "Martin achieved quite a lot during his life....but he was absolutely shit at bending blackwood bindings" :(
Martin

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Trevor Gore » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:16 pm

blackalex1952 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:31 pm
Trevor, you look pretty close to burning your fingers...
Well, that shot was posed for the book. I was operating the camera at the same time as posing for the shot. But I don't wear gloves when bending wood anyway. I haven't burnt my fingers yet, but that's perhaps not a recommendation for others! Not wearing gloves certainly keeps you focused on what's going on, lets you feel the temperature, the wood and how it's moving.

I frequently get asked what the trick is to bending wood. My normal answer is there isn't one (other than patience). Maybe this is the trick: don't wear gloves! :mrgreen:

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:39 pm

Trevor Gore wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:16 pm
Maybe this is the trick: don't wear gloves! :mrgreen:
I don't think so...I also don't wear gloves. :(
Martin

Dave M
Blackwood
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:44 am
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Dave M » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:13 am

And of course it isn't just the bindings it's the side as well. But we persist because we like the shape and because we love the cutaway, even - actually - especially on classicals. I haven't been quite as sharp on this one but I do like it.
Attachments
cutaway 3 small.jpg
------------------
Dave

blackalex1952
Blackwood
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:36 pm
Location: North East Victoria

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by blackalex1952 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:42 am

I admit that I don't wear the gloves much, and don't pull any punches or throw any fights! :mrgreen:
The gloves however, do sit near the bending iron and are deployed when I need them to get close to the heat. Mainly on sides actually. They are also good for the bindings, depending on the wood. I also spritz so they help with any burn from steam. Good quality pro gloves though...have used them in the water drilling industry when rod handling.
Cheers! Ross.
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"

blackalex1952
Blackwood
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:36 pm
Location: North East Victoria

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by blackalex1952 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:45 am

Trevor wrote:
Well, that shot was posed for the book. I was operating the camera at the same time as posing for the shot.
There are two hands in the shot. How many hands do you actually have, Trevor? No wonder you make good guitars! :mrgreen: -Ross
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:53 am

blackalex1952 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:45 am
Trevor wrote:
Well, that shot was posed for the book. I was operating the camera at the same time as posing for the shot.
There are two hands in the shot. How many hands do you actually have, Trevor? No wonder you make good guitars! :mrgreen: -Ross
Good spot Ross. Ok Trevor what's going on?? Time to come clean. :evil:
Martin

User avatar
Trevor Gore
Blackwood
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: Louro Faia for binding .. a complete failure

Post by Trevor Gore » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:10 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:53 am
Ok Trevor what's going on?? Time to come clean. :evil:
Well, I thought all luthiers could grow (and resorb) a third hand at will.

Are you saying you can't?

You'd better get down to the vet and see what he can do for you, or you might be permanently stuck with those four feet. :shock:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests