Home/workshop recording studio setup help

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lamanoditrento
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Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by lamanoditrento » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:28 pm

So I have been thinking about recording samples of guitars on something a bit more professional than my iphone and setting up a recording setup. It would be just to record samples of my guitars so I don't think I need much but I really don't have much of a clue.

I don't mind investing in a good setup but it is really just going to be this single type of use so I am not sure what I need and what I can skip. What would everyone suggest I look into?
Trent

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by scripsit » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:40 pm

Trent

I'd suggest this device if you want to improve the quality of acoustic guitar recording:
https://www.storedj.com.au/zoom-h5-handy-recorder

It works surprisingly well just using the built in X-Y configuration microphones.

You can record directly to the device, then transfer the file to a PC for editing and so on (it does have built in editing features, but they are tricky to use on the small screen) in a proper DAW. If you are just starting out the free Audacity program works well for topping and tailing and doing basic EQ and reverb and so on.

If you prefer, you can use the device with a USB cord into the computer and record directly through the built in mics into your DAW.

If you get serious about recording, you can plug more specialised mics, like your favourite condensors, into the Zoom, and either record to the device or use it as a preamp into the computer. The preamps seem to be very high quality.

I've got a 'proper' recording setup in a dedicated room, with reasonably expensive mics, preamp and purpose built computer and DAW, but find the Zoom works well for quick and dirty sketches anywhere in the house, or when I'm away from home. I mount it on a cheap camera tripod, starting usually about 400mm from the 12th fret, pointing at the bridge.

You'll find with all recording that the most important ingredient is the room that you're recording in, and next is where the microphone is located. The Zoom is capable of doing a remarkably accurate job.

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by Steve.Toscano » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:10 pm

Hey Trent.
I have-
Mic: https://www.musoscorner.com.au/akg-p170 ... microphone
Interface: https://www.storedj.com.au/native-instr ... e-elements

Connected to my laptop.

This setup is used to record all my audio, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyScnnLXFH0
(If doing video as well, make sure you think to have a clean background, unlike me :oops: :oops: )
In that clip the video is filmed separately on a Samsung phone. I then mash the audio and video together useing: https://www.openshot.org/

I have Cubase 6, although i typically don't use it when recording just a single guitar, instead i just go with Audacity as it does everything needed without all the 'extras' getting in the way.

My interface is overkill for a single guitar, you could get away with any cheap one. I got a more advanced unit as at the time I was recording live duo's with it.

I don't see the need to splurge on fancier mics (then what i have), as mostly the listener isn't using good enough headphones or speakers to be able to pick up the difference anyway.

I've been looking at a mic/software setup for android to record in the workshop on the fly, but am yet to find something suitable.

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by blackalex1952 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:46 am

I have done my fair share of recording...the zooms are good but the important things to remember are consistency in the microphone placement,the room acoustics and the ratio between direct and indirect sound. A dry sound is best for a guitar when simply recording its qualities. The term "dry" here refers to little reverberation. Rooms colour the sound, and create a reverberation of some sort along with frequency effects on the recording. So the ratio of room sound to the instrument is the critical thing to get consistency with. Remember also that most people are not listening to an instrument on a consistent speaker set up. It is probably more important for the average punter to hear some reverb and flashy playing. Having said that, the basic characteristics of the guitar will shine through. Try listening to guitars as recorded on you tube or other websites....hard to compare as the recording techniques and the playback media at the consumers end vary. Listen to your recording on a range of crappy speakers and get some kind of consistency. The zoom and audacity are a good cheap recommendation. DAW stands for Digital Audio Workstation. Did you hear about the musos who were trapped in the studio? They couldn't operate the DAW! :lol:
cheers! Ross
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by WJ Guitars » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:16 pm

Hi Trent

I have an older version of Pro tools, some 'waves' software and record in my upstairs loft studio room. I record in an acoustic controlled environment in stereo, dry no eq or effects. Less is more. On some recordings I use X - Y microphone format with a matched pair of condenser microphones and more recently use 3 pointed microphone setup (Left Centre Right). Spending time positioning the microphones is important to minimise phase cancellation issues. I like using a matched pair of ribbon microphones (Left Right) and condenser microphone blend for the centre. The ribbon microphones give a more natural warm sounds and the condenser gives the high end sparkle.

Wayne
https://wjguitars.wixsite.com/mysite-1
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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by blackalex1952 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:52 pm

Hey Trent...also beware of built in obsolescence with computers and software.
The zoom suggestion is all you need really, as long as you can record from it to the computer. I use Dropbox for large WAV samples which are the best quality, but take time to upload to websites or emails in many cases. Some websites and most emails are limited in file size, high speed internet helps. Audacity I believe will also load some good free plug ins, eg mastering compressors, equalisers etc.but changing things too much is fraught with danger for the inexperienced. Bear in mind that Mp3's modify the sound although they give smaller file sizes. Audacity will compress WAV files to Mp3... Best wishes, looking forward to hearing some recordings from you. You can beg borrow or steal some good mics to try when you get the hang of things. Also perhaps a small el cheapo mixing desk if you want to use more than two mics to pick up the instruments sound well. The mixer will plug in to the Zoom which has stereo input, the mixer having stereo output. Mic position with multiple mics is important make sure all mics measure the same distance from the instrument to avoid phase cancellations. Aim to get some decent monitor speakers or headphones....both are preferable. Then check your recording on computer speakers, laptop speakers and in the car! Zooms record at CD quality, have a solid reputation in the industry and are not limited by software changes.
Kind regards, Ross
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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by lamanoditrento » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:17 am

Ok great. Thanks everyone! That is just the start I needed
Trent

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by seeaxe » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:10 pm

Hi Trent
I've been trying to build up a set of recordings of my repertoire so set up a simple system that a non tech person like me can handle. I suspect I only use about 1% of its capability but I like to keep things simple. My recordings are my " homework" I take to the next lesson. I find the process helps me focus on a particular piece and has improved my playing (which isn't saying much, but better is still better:))

I'm using a Rode mike into a two channel behringer mixer preamp and that plugs straight into the headphone/mike socket on my PC. On the PC I use Audacity (cos it's free!) and don't use any effects. All I do is twiddle the gain knobs on the preamp to get the recording level I want.

Cue a lot of cringing from the more savvy recording types but it's simple cheap and quick. Considering most of the time I play back the end result from my phone through a Bluetooth speaker I don't need much higher fi.

If you are using it for comparing one guitar to another then you would need careful note of any tweaked setttings
Richard

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by lamanoditrento » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:55 am

seeaxe wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:10 pm
If you are using it for comparing one guitar to another then you would need careful note of any tweaked setttings
Thanks Richard - that is a good point
Trent

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by Steve.Toscano » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Hi Trent,
Further to my post above I've been wanting something more portable and easy to setup for on the go recordings and have recently purchased a USB mic to connect directly to my phone (samsung S9).
This one: https://www.jbhifi.com.au/rode/rode-ntu ... ne/990199/


I've been recording this useing the open camera app and selecting the audio source to use the external mic.

I am happy with the overall quality of the audio, however , I have encounted a few problems:
1) Natively the gain is a little low, so i've had to up it post recording using open shot. On further reasearch apparently this is an issue with USB condenser mics as they don't get enough power: 5v vs 48v
2) There is mic clipping, that so far with any of the software I have i cannot get rid of.
3) The audio track ends up slightly faster then the video, and gets faster throughout the recordings, more noticeable on longer jobs.

You can see and hear a recording with the above setup and issues: https://youtu.be/c7aSJE6tUcI

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by blackalex1952 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:08 pm

Steve, the problem will be with the app on the phone or the phone itself. Rhode mics are pretty good although I have never used their USB mic. They have a great reputation to uphold these days. Test the microphone by downloading Audacity then use the mic on your computer. It will also work with Visual Analyser if you have not yet tried the frequency taps it will show-BUT VA HAS TO BE SET UP SO THAT THE MICROPHONE IS THE INPUT TO THE SOFTWARE (SETTINGS, FOLLOW THE TABS) or the internal mic will default and give useless readings. When using Audacity- make sure that the mic is selected as the input in the Audacity settings.
As far as advertising the sound of guitars on an internet page goes, have a listen to lots of websites and you tube samples of luthiers who are recording their guitars and you will probably come to a similar conclusion to myself. It's impossible to tell the sound of a guitar and also to compare with others in the marketplace. Most of the good audio demos are recorded in studio conditions with fine players who can pull the best tone from the instrument in question. The recording room is as good as can be, the equipment and mic techniques are all properly done and the sound is further modified to get the best results when played back on just about any standard of loudspeaker.
Here is a link to one of the most difficult type of guitar to record, the Selmer style jazz guitar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6KJocTtxFs
These are all examples of these guitars by a range of famous makers and all vintage instruments. They are all well recorded with the same mic and recording method. Differences can be heard here, but still not enough info is conveyed, how the instrument in question projects, how its voice works in an ensemble environment, in a noisy room, etc. Also have a look at numerous examples from a site called Djangobooks. Many guitars recorded by the site owner as he sells vintage European instruments in the US and also forum members instruments (Craig Bumgarner, Michael Collins)
Cheers! Ross
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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:44 am

Thanks Steve. I had settled on this https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/handy-r ... y-recorder and put it on the xmas list. Might be too late to update the list
Trent

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:45 am

blackalex1952 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:08 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6KJocTtxFs
These are all examples of these guitars by a range of famous makers and all vintage instruments.
That was very interesting
Trent

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by blackalex1952 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:34 am

I have an older version of Pro tools, some 'waves' software and record in my upstairs loft studio room. I record in an acoustic controlled environment in stereo, dry no eq or effects. Less is more. On some recordings I use X - Y microphone format with a matched pair of condenser microphones and more recently use 3 pointed microphone setup (Left Centre Right). Spending time positioning the microphones is important to minimise phase cancellation issues. I like using a matched pair of ribbon microphones (Left Right) and condenser microphone blend for the centre. The ribbon microphones give a more natural warm sounds and the condenser gives the high end sparkle.

Wayne
https://wjguitars.wixsite.com/mysite-1
I just checked out Wayne's website and guitars, in particular his recordings. A nice set up, I really like the ribbon mics and lovely recordings...ahhh such a luxury...now, in my day all we had was......... :mrgreen:
Also, Wayne, I like your brace carve, nice and light. Cheers! Ross
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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by WJ Guitars » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:50 pm

I just checked out Wayne's website and guitars, in particular his recordings. A nice set up, I really like the ribbon mics and lovely recordings...ahhh such a luxury...now, in my day all we had was......... :mrgreen:
Also, Wayne, I like your brace carve, nice and light.
Thanks Ross for your comments.

I do enjoy using 'Protools'. My background in recording began many years ago with sound engineering and recording for the Department of Education musical training tapes for inter school productions and recordings various contemporary music bands, choirs etc (no computers then). I have also designed and built a few sound recording studios. I'm now retired and like using the ribbon and condenser microphone combinations in the home studio.

I am looking forward to 2019 to start some new guitar builds. Next project will be 'GS' model with German Spruce top and Amazon Rosewood Back and sides.

Regards
Wayne
https://wjguitars.wixsite.com/mysite-1

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by blackalex1952 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:58 pm

Thanks for your personal info , Wayne...we may even have crossed paths at some stage...I was an AV Tech as there weren't really many pathways into sound recording in the '70's and also spent a bit of time in education in that era as well as being a guitarist for many years and worked at places like La Trobe University and Crawford Productions, along with many other diverse roles, live sound, documentary and TV filmaking, ...school of hard knocks back then...hats off to you mate, for being true to yourself and for a life of achievement!

I would still recommend the Zoom HN1 stand alone recorder to any luthiers who want a relatively cost effective way of consistent recording on an entry level. Resonable mics, consistent sound, CD quality, portable, stand alone and can be output into a computer with no soundcard for editing, more "software upgrade" proof, so long term a better investment on an entry level IMOP! They are around for under $100, (ebay $80, a shop in Melb $159) So good value and easy enough to use. Cheaper than a computer software program and a sound card along with two mics and some monitors...why throw $$$'s away for the same basic result when one can put saved funds towards tone wood and tools!
As you and I both know, the room, the mic placement and the quality of the digital to audio converters is really the main issue for home recording set ups...oh yes, and the quality of the acoustic input, in this case a handmade guitar.

-Not every one has a few vintage Neumenn mics at their disposal, and a little experience-as I just happen to ( I STILL have an old Revox sitting here in my lounge room, we also used to use Nagras )....in fact I know less about guitar building than I know about gigging,playing and recording!

Cheers! Ross
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"

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Re: Home/workshop recording studio setup help

Post by blackalex1952 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:04 pm

I just reviewed the original question posed by Trent
I don't mind investing in a good setup but it is really just going to be this single type of use so I am not sure what I need and what I can skip.
And later in the thread:
I had settled on this https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/handy-r ... y-recorder and put it on the xmas list.

I have checked out the Zooms on their website and the HN2 might be overkill for your needs! The HN1 would be a simpler choice re the first question...The HN2 is a little complex and overkill in your case. But, if all else fails. the old adage: READ THE INSTRUCTION MANULAL!@ cHEERS rOSS
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