What difference lacquer makes to sound

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TallDad71
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What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by TallDad71 » Sat May 18, 2019 12:02 am

I’ve always French polished my guitars with shellac. Recently I decided to learn how to lacquer them and have just found the 999th factor that affects sound. I knew it would but never to this degree!

It worth noting before I tell my tale that I always complete my guitars before I put a finish on, I like to know what sounds they will make before I spend a week finishing them.

So I lacquered two different guitars last month. The first sounded amazing in the raw, really pleased with the tone, timbre, projection, the lot.
The second was less successful, tone was ok, timbre was a bit 2 dimensional. I posted spectographs of the sounds and Steve from Toscana guitars suggested it might need a stiffer soundboard, thanks Steve.

Now lacquered the quality of sound from both guitars has switched. The first now sounds flat and the second, now stiffer, thanks Steve, sounds wonderful.

I guess I learnt a trick. If I built a great guitar , shellac, if I under build the top, a litre of lacquer will do the trick. Everyday is a school day.
Alan
Peregrine Guitars

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Allen
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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by Allen » Sat May 18, 2019 6:39 am

I know some pro builders that can tell the difference between brands of lacquer on their instruments. Most of those fellows are US builders that had to switch and try different brands when their favourite closed up shop several years ago.

I've only ever used Mirotone when I used lacquer so couldn't offer an opinion about that.
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Steve.Toscano
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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by Steve.Toscano » Sat May 18, 2019 6:42 am

This is why i only put a very thin satin nitro OR french polish on my own guitars.
By the way, the sound will start to improve somewhat while the lacquer hardens.

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WJ Guitars
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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by WJ Guitars » Sat May 18, 2019 9:10 am

I have been using 'Behlem' Instrument gloss Nitro Lacquer from America on my Steel String guitar that I build and I am very happy with the final result, visually and sound wise. I apply:

1 x Vinyl Sealer Coats
5 x Wet Nitro Lacquer Coats
1 x thin 50:50 Nitro Lacquer Coats

On some occasions an addition coat may been required to achieve final levelling. I purchase the 'Behlem' products from 'guitarAust', in Victoria, as it cannot be shipped from overseas. It is very expensive and I may consider swapping over to 'Mirotone' in the future.

Shellac french polishing on the guitar top as we all know will produce amazing results visually and sound wise. On Steel String guitars using Nitro lacquer only on the back and sides being harder for protection with shellac on the top is a good combination that helps sound wise. For classical guitars I think Shellac is better.

I'm not sure about any other Nitro Lacquer products in Australia. I understand that 'Wattyl' in Australia have a Nitro Lacquer product that can only be purchased in larger drums sizes if it still available. I don't think it is designed specifically for musical instrument applications.

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Joseph Jones
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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by Joseph Jones » Sat May 18, 2019 10:44 am

I use Wattyl lacquer,
Very temperamental to the weather
And I’ve found that no matter how much thinners I flush with first, it always spits out little strings onto my project😫. Might be the $60 gun? Don’t know.

Want to move to mirrortone as I’ve heard it dries harder than wattyl....


Joseph
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TallDad71
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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by TallDad71 » Sat May 18, 2019 7:28 pm

So given that different lacquers will have different effects on the sound how on earth do you engineer the soundboard to compensate. Experience tells us that a 1% difference in structure can separate a great guitar from a good guitar.

Do you knowingly over thin the top or under build the braces in anticipation?
Alan
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demonx
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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by demonx » Sun May 19, 2019 7:34 am

TallDad71 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:28 pm
So given that different lacquers will have different effects on the sound how on earth do you engineer the soundboard to compensate. Experience tells us that a 1% difference in structure can separate a great guitar from a good guitar.

Do you knowingly over thin the top or under build the braces in anticipation?
The answer is “yes”.

What I mean by that is, it’s all part of your recipe.

So just like you make allowances for top thickness and bracing sizes etc etc to get your desired sound, your recipe will also include paint as a variable.

Then you’ll have to be as consistent as possible with your paint application to try achieve repeatability.

With all that said, no two pieces of wood will sound exactly the same, but you will get very similar. Same with paint.

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Re: What difference lacquer makes to sound

Post by blackalex1952 » Sun May 19, 2019 10:28 am

I use Durobond nitro as mentioned in "The Books" by Trevor and Gerard. The idea of using the sanding sealer doesn't rock my boat because the sealers are a type of vinyl base and seem to me like they deaden the sound. So I apply the nitro straight to the soundboard, or perhaps with a layer of shellac first, and usually seal the grainy backs and sides with tinted Plaster of Paris or shellac and sawdust. For my laminated backs and sides I use epoxy glue as a sanding sealer or the previously mentioned. I avoid using the epoxy fill method because there is a lot more elbow grease required to sand it back whereas the two previously mentioned grain fill methods are quick and dirty, and sand easily.I don't perceive any difference in tone between these sealing methods, the soundboard being the main influence....the beauty of the nitro to me is that pretty thin coats can bring a soundboard to a point where it can be polished after a couple of weeks of off gassing.. Getting the off gassing process to happen fairly quickly by applying multiple thinned coats seems to work better. I contemplated switching to the Mirrortone finishes but they are more expensive and still incredibly toxic. Note-I have found that the Feast and Watson range of stains, readily available at Bunnings, are compatible with the Durobond nitro, so for colour matching and custom colours the options open up quite a lot. I have also had success with Durobond and solid pigments. As to the tone, well, I learn Mr Fawlty...cheers Ross
"Everything I say on the topic is based solely upon inexperience and assumption!"

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