00 Acoustic build thread.

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Joseph Jones
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00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:52 pm

Hi all.
Rather than filling the forum with all my
First-builder questions...I thought I’d start a thread on the whole guitar.

I’ve downloaded the 00 size plan from Grellier
and am “customising” it to my preferences.

It will be Sitca Spruce top
Mahogany back
Sides are either mahogany or rosewood.
Mahogany neck
Ebony fingerboard and bridge
With Jarrah and Mulga as bindings headplates ect

John Maddison, a luthier close by has been very helpful so far and showed be how to bend the sides on an iron as well as some other tips.

So the sides are bent, top and back thicknessed, now working on some bracing and kerfings.
I’ve made a 25ft radius dish which I’ll use for top and back.

If someone sees I’m doing something a bit weird feel free to say something as I don’t really know what I’m doing!
Look forward to keeping you updated.

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Mark McLean » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:17 pm

Hi Joseph
Looking very good so far.
My only comment would be on the glue choice. Is the Gorilla PVA Glue the one you are planning to use for the whole build? I have no experience with it myself, but most people are wary of using PVA glues because of the issue of cold creep which can be an issue over time with joints that are under constant stress. The effect of 140 lbs of string tension constantly trying to fold your guitar in half can make glued joints move over time. The most trusted glues for general guitar construction are Titebond (Original - the red one), or hot hide glue if you want to be traditional.

Sitka and mahogany 00 is a classic design. Should be good. Are you planning a 12-fret or 14-fret neck joint (I am guessing from your mock-up that it will be 12)? Slotted headstock or peghead? And what scale length?

Keep showing us pictures as you go. We love that around here.
Cheers
Mark

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by kiwigeo » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:43 pm

My comments:

1) go with Titebond I AR glue
2) Ebony makes for a rather heavy bridge....I prefer rosewood or if using CF I use blackwood or walnut to keep weight down with the CF adding stiffness.
Martin

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:34 pm

Thanks Mark,

Titebond lll (green) is what I’ve been using so far, the gorilla is just for jigs etc. But I’ll try find some of the red.

Peghead but haven’t got any tuners yet.

Not sure about scale at this stage, probably 14 fret now that I’m not doing a cutaway.
yet to get cluey about all that.
frets and neckjoint are what I’m probably most nervous about stuffing up.

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:42 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:43 pm

2) Ebony makes for a rather heavy bridge....I prefer rosewood or if using CF I use blackwood or walnut to keep weight down with the CF adding stiffness.
Thanks Martin
I really like look of the Ebony bridges I’ve seen on other guitars.
I’ve heard bridgeplate species changes sound too so don’t what would go well with Ebony?


Also I want to give the arm bevel a go too.
(Forgot to mention that before)

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by lamanoditrento » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:00 am

You can always ebonise your bridge and get the best of both worlds:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techn ... izing_wood
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8469&p=90008&hilit=ebonising#p90008

I would highly recommend Kent Everrett's videos if you're going for an arm bevels
https://obrienguitars.com/courses/arm-bevel

Good luck and I look forward to the rest of your build thread
Trent

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:27 am

Thanks for the links Trent,
Ebonizing sounds like the way to go then.

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:55 am

Just bought and download the arm bevel video.

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by ozziebluesman » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:22 am

Hi Joseph,
I'm with the red Titebond also.
I use the super strength epoxy follow the instructions and mix it very well to glue down the fingerboard. I also use some on the neck bolt inserts as well.
Looking forward to watching your build.
Cheers
Alan
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Alan Hamley

http://www.hamleyfineguitars.com/

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Hank » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:22 am

Hi Joseph
I'm doing the same! Same plan same body timbers

I'm trying a 10ft radius on the back with 25ft on the top and 13 frets to the body

Looking forward to seeing yours come to life
Without deviation progress is not possible.

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by seeaxe » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:14 pm

That looks like it will be a little beauty.

The issue with ebony is that weighs a lot more than equivalent timbers and (to paraphrase Gore/Gilet) the mass of the bridge has a big impact on the sound of the guitar with lighter being better. I agree ebony looks great so if you use it try to find the smallest (therefore lightest) design you can. The old Martin pyramid bridge was pretty small.

And you mentioned you hadn't decided on whether its 12 or 14 frets yet. Thats a big decision to leave so late imho. I havent seen the Grellier 00 plan but it will be drawn for one or the other. If you choose something different to his plan then you will need to adjust the bracing layout accordingly. Apologies if you know all this already.

Look forward to lots of pictures.
Suddenly we have a few build threads going at once! Cool.
Richard

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by seeaxe » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:18 pm

PS Ive used titebond 1 (red stuff) for everything for all my guitars I'm yet to have any titebond glue joint fail. If it will hold a classical bridge on it will do all the other glue jobs on a guitar, imo.
Cheers
Richard

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Mark McLean » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:47 pm

I think the Grellier plan for a 00 is 14 frets clear of the body, and 633mm (24.9 inch) scale length. That would be fine, and no need to deviate from the plan unless you have a specific desire. For your first build it would be best to stick to the drawings - at least as far as dimensions go. You can customize on the timber and trimmings. The arm bevel, like a cutaway, adds a significant degree of difficulty for a novice. I am not saying you couldn’t manage it, but just be aware it is not a simple add on. You don’t need to make your dream guitar at the first attempt. It is often said that very few people stop after making one guitar.

The other common trap for first time builders is failure to understand the effects of humidity on the timber you are working with. There are a couple of critical stages of the build when things can be completely buggered up because you glued together two pieces of wood on a day when the humidity level was high. A couple of weeks later when the weather becomes dry you find yourself wondering why your lovely 25’ radiused and braced top has become cupped inside-out like a potato chip, or why your mahogany back developed a big crack shortly after you glued it to the sides. I was that guy, and many of us have had similar experiences. When you are reading about building guitars the stuff on “humidity control in the workshop” seems very boring and tedious. But you ignore it at your peril. It can be as simple as understanding which are the sensitive steps (this is bracing, and gluing the top or back to the sides) - and only do these steps when the humidity is low (e.g. 40-50%) and has been stable for a few days. Hopefully your mentor Mr Maddison will emphasize this point too. It is really useful to have an experienced guide.

Get an instruction book, if you haven’t got one already. A plan gives you dimensions but no order of steps or instructions. Various good ones available. A lot of people start with Cumpiano and Natelson (but a bit dated and not so easy to follow imho). I really liked Jonathan Kinkead’s “Build your own acoustic guitar” for my first attempt. When you really get into this you will want the gospel according to Gore and Gilet .
Cheers
mark

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:04 pm

Mark McLean wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:47 pm
When you really get into this you will want the gospel according to Gore and Gilet .
Buy The Books now...resistance is futile! :mrgreen:
Martin

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by sleake » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:51 pm

+1 on 'the books'. Volume one is both scary and inspiring in equal measure with a confronting amount of technical details, while volume 2 is a friendly and incredibly detailed guide through the whole process, with a range of options for various skill/enthusiasm/patience levels.

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:54 pm

Thanks Mark, lots of insight there.
Will keep the humidity in mind each step also.

I’ve got cumpianos book. This forum also is where I’ve learned just about all I know.

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Crafty Fox » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:52 am

+1 for the Jonathon Kinkead book. I built my OM (Sitka top, Sheoak back and sides, Cherry neck with sheoak fretboard) a few years ago by following that.
And Titebond Original for me too.
Ken

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Mark McLean » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:49 am

You are ready to glue in the neck and heel blocks. Next decision is what type of neck joint to use - bolt on or dovetail. You can get into a massive debate over this issue but pretty much everyone here at ANZLF seems to be in the bolt-on camp. I think it is definitely the right way to go. Even traditionalist William Cumpiano has converted to bolt-on methods in the years since he wrote his book (check his website).

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:28 am

Hmm yes, the neck joint.
Do I need to sort all that out now before the neck block is in or is it easier to cut it at a later stage?

Won’t be going dovetail I reckon.

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:31 am

I should make the block the same timber as the neck?

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:49 am

Hank wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:22 am
Hi Joseph
I'm doing the same! Same plan same body timbers

I'm trying a 10ft radius on the back with 25ft on the top and 13 frets to the body

Looking forward to seeing yours come to life
And yours!
Sometimes accuracy is better than precision.

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:54 am

seeaxe wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:14 pm
That looks like it will be a little beauty.

The issue with ebony is that weighs a lot more than equivalent timbers and (to paraphrase Gore/Gilet) the mass of the bridge has a big impact on the sound of the guitar with lighter being better. I agree ebony looks great so if you use it try to find the smallest (therefore lightest) design you can. The old Martin pyramid bridge was pretty small.

And you mentioned you hadn't decided on whether its 12 or 14 frets yet. Thats a big decision to leave so late imho. I havent seen the Grellier 00 plan but it will be drawn for one or the other. If you choose something different to his plan then you will need to adjust the bracing layout accordingly. Apologies if you know all this already.

Look forward to lots of pictures.
Suddenly we have a few build threads going at once! Cool.
Thanks Richard,

I’m using bracing patterns from plan so I guess their scale etc is best for now.

Haven’t designed my bridge yet but will probably end up ebonising something

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Mark McLean » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:24 pm

Work out what you are going to do regarding the neck joint before you glue in any neck block, and ideally before you glue the heel to the neck. The most common timber used for neck and tail blocks would be mahogany - same as your neck material. But it doesn’t need to be the same. There are a few options for a bolt on neck system and all work just fine. Most common are a mortise and tenon, or a butt joint with some sort of mortised extension under the fingerboard. That sounds like a complicated description but it is a lot easier to understand with some pictures. Get back to us when you are ready to figure that out.

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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Joseph Jones » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:47 am

Going for a pinned mortise on the neck joint.
Mahogany neck and tasi oak block should work well?

Joseph
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Re: 00 Acoustic build thread.

Post by Mark McLean » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Tassie oak would probably be OK for the blocks. Lets see if anyone here has tried it before?

Mortice and tenon is a tried and tested system. How you attach them to each other is the important question. Pinned mortice is not a common way of doing a guitar neck these days - but it was used by Michael Gurian, one of the early pioneer independent luthiers in the 1970s. His guitars were very highly regarded, but I have never seen one. Is this the sort of thing you have in mind?
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It comes from one of Frank Ford’s pages at frets.com, which is worth looking at:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier ... reset.html

But a more common way of attaching the m&t joint would be to bolt it, maybe using simple barrel nuts. This is essentially the new Cumpiano method:
https://www.cumpiano.com/an-improved-neck-body-joint

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