Long time no build

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Mark McLean
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Mark McLean » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:57 am

That is a setback for sure, but fixable. Are they all loose? If so, there is not much option but to remove them as gently as possible and have at it again with new wire.
Did you glue them in? If not, and if it is just a few of them causing problems, you could wick in some thin CA glue to the slots of the loose ones and see if that gets you out of trouble.

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:00 pm

Yeah Mark they're all loose. They actually kind of sing when I run my fingernail down the fretboard, each one plays it's own note.

I've got a set of fret removing pliers on the way, should be here on Friday so I'll just take it easy till then and see how they go coming out. I did glue them in with just a drop of thin CA on either end but I don't think it really took too well. Should I look at trying to de-glue them with some acetone or just hit them with the pliers and see if they're shifting?

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Mark McLean
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Mark McLean » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:17 am

I have seen a recommendation by Frank Ford (frets.com) to heat the fret with a soldering iron to loosen glue before pulling them. I guess this would work best for a PVA or hide glue - maybe not so well for CA, but it could be worth a try if you find them difficult to remove. But it sounds like they are so loose that removing them probably won’t be difficult once you have the appropriate tool in your hand.

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lamanoditrento
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Re: Long time no build

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:42 am

A touch of acetone will melt the CA if heat doesn't. If you don't want to buy bigger fretwire, you can epoxy the frets in. They will need to be bent pretty close to the radius. You de-barb the tang (probably not necessary for you) and use a tooth pick to get the glue (I used a syringe) in the slot. Push the fret in and clean up any squeeze out with a metho dampened rag. Then clamp with some wax paper and the radius beam you used to radius the fretboard.

I quite liked the process when I did it, and so little fretwork afterward. Admittedly I did it on a flat fretboard...
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Trent

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:29 pm

That's an interesting fretting method Trent, can't say I've heard of that one before but sounds like it would solve my problem. I think I'll replace them though as I've already got the wire. Did you tint the epoxy, looks black in the syringe?

I really like the soundhole inlay on that guitar of yours, it looks great!

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:36 pm

It looks pretty horrible!
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The third fret and a couple up on the soundboard are probably the worst of them. Fortunately there's really no long grain in the Lace Sheoak so the chips are mostly limited to a size that should be covered by the new frets. I've sealed them all up and secured the loose chips that stayed in place with CA and will sand it back to see if anything needs filling before refretting.

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lamanoditrento
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Re: Long time no build

Post by lamanoditrento » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:40 pm

Thanks, I had a really great time with that rosette and the many many mitres. I got this method from Paco Chorobo's flamenco building course. Banging in frets where the barbs are wider than the slot can sometimes cause back bow. As there is no truss rod in a flamenco there is now way you can adjust it so this method avoid that problem. Epoxy is also useful as it doesn't introduce moisture.

Yes I tinted the epoxy black to match the fretboard because I undercut the tangs and I didn't want any clear expoxy showing on the side of the fretboard. Probably not necessary if you don't undercut your tangs.
Trent

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kiwigeo
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Re: Long time no build

Post by kiwigeo » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Steve, do you run a triangular file across your fret slots to create a bevel on the side of the slot before knocking the fret in? This can help reduce tear out when you have to pull a fret. Something else that helps during a fret pull is placing a Stewmac fretboard protector over the fret before going in with the pullers.....they're the metal shields you use when you're doing fret dressing.
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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:16 pm

Sounds good Trent, definitely a method I'll keep in mind.

I did bevel the slots Martin, but today's results have shown me that I haven't done it anywhere near wide enough to be useful. I'll go a little further with the bevelling next time for sure. Along with my fret removing pliers I bought a pair of the Stewmac Chip Stoppers which slide under the fret from the lifted side as you move along. I tried a couple each way and I think the Chip Stoppers did help a little but I don't think they were any match for the underdone bevel.

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Mark McLean
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Mark McLean » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 pm

Yes, the new frets will probably cover up nearly all the chips. For any bigger ones the sawdust and CA remedy will fix it. That figured timber will hide blemishes really well, just as long as you fill any divots. The whole instrument is looking great.

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:07 pm

Cheers Mark.

Got some sawdust and CA filling done on the fretboard today and refretted using the wider tang frets. Most of the damage got covered up but there's still one or two chips that I overlooked and will need to catch up with now.

The frets feel much better and I think the problem is solved.
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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:02 pm

Got the bridge made up and started sanding.

Looks like I might have angled the neck a little too far in the end. A straight edge from the frets to the bridge sits about 2mm above it where I was expecting it to sit just about on top of the bridge. I guess a taller saddle might sort it out but it's not ideal.
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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:36 pm

Cut a hole and glued the bridge on.

Haven't used any onboard electronics on the previous ones so this is a bit different for me. Had mixed feelings on whether or not to go ahead with it but that was always the plan for this one so I figured I might as well stick to it.
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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:39 pm

Got hold of the books and have been reading about all the things I could've done differently on this build... Should be interesting to see how the next one compares.

Anyhow, I'm up to the bit where you get to finally see the timber and forget (ignore for just a little while) the things you stuffed up along the way. I like this bit.
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I had planned to mitre all the purfling corners on the sides but got a bit excited with the trimmer and routed for purfling straight across the top of the tail strip. After looking at it for quite some time considering the work that would be required to fix it up I just decided to run with it and not stuff it up next time. Looking at it now, I won't stuff it up next time.

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:12 pm

Stringed it up today and made some noise.
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Started off with a super tall saddle to compensate for my neck angle error but looks like I might be able to take a couple of millimetres off and still get reasonable action. It's not ideal but also not as bad as I was expecting. Below is the starting point!
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Mark McLean
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Mark McLean » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:22 am

The whole thing looks really great! The sheoak is beautiful under finish, and the whole design really came together well. I hope you are thrilled with the outcome. The saddle looks managable, especially if you can take it down a bit from where it is in that photo. Things like mitred purflings are details that only you and a few others will ever notice. Everybody else will just admire a really good job. And you knocked it off in good time too. Does it sound good, and does playing it make you feel good?

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lamanoditrento
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Re: Long time no build

Post by lamanoditrento » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:44 pm

Well done Steve. Looks like it came together nicely! How'd it sound? Are you happy?
Trent

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kiwigeo
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Re: Long time no build

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:19 pm

Nice work mate. I fixed up that photo that was on it's side....makes it easier to see that nice stash of wood behind the guitar :mrgreen:
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Mark McLean
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Mark McLean » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:07 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:19 pm
Nice work mate. I fixed up that photo that was on it's side....makes it easier to see that nice stash of wood behind the guitar :mrgreen:
Yes, there are clearly going to be some more nice instruments coming out of that workshop......

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kiwigeo
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Re: Long time no build

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:43 pm

Might as well add to this thread. My workshop has been packed up for close to 3 years now while I build a new house. The house is nearly finished and I should be moving in mid October. The garage and workshop have been home during the build and once I'm back in the house there'll be a few months spent getting the workshop up and running. Once that's done the next task will be finishing a number of instruments including a lute, a falcate braced classical, a parlour guitar and a Gore OM (sister instrument to the fan fret I finished before packing up the workshop). A few pics of the new house attached. The project is a Passivhaus. The curved roof is a homage to Trevor Gore and his falcate bracing :)
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Martin

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:49 pm

Thanks for the kind words Gents, still need to work on the frets and get the action set up correctly before I can have a good play but it did sound nice when first strung up. There's a lot of potential guitars up on those wood shelves and I like to think they've just been acclimatising for the last 8 years or so.

The new house looks amazing Martin and good to see it's close to finished. Here's a pic of my front door about 2 years ago. It looks a bit better now but I'm still working on it...
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Dave M
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Dave M » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:48 am

Glad to see the house is going well Martin. Looks very smart. I'm sure you'll be glad to put down the hammers, plaster floats and paint brushes and pick up some finer tools.

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:55 pm

Ok, I've done a quick setup on it and the saddle is a little more respectable in height above the bridge.

There's a couple of rattles from the onboard pre-amp wires that I need to sort out but that shouldn't be a major issue. I do have a problem in that the open b string makes a horrible whistling sound when played like sympathetic strings on a sitar. The same note played on another string doesn't present any issue and any fretted note on the b string is also ok. This makes me think it might be a nut issue but not really sure where to start. Any ideas?
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Mark McLean
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Re: Long time no build

Post by Mark McLean » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:03 pm

Sitar buzzing sound typically comes from the saddle or the nut having a flat spot, rather than a peak. If it goes away when the string is fretted then I think you probably have correctly located it to the nut. If you play the string open (so it is buzzing) and then press your finger on the string directly as it crosses the nut while you play again - does that get rid of it? If so, you need to alter that slot in the nut. Is it too wide, allowing the string to vibrate? Or there is a flat spot, and you need to ramp it down a bit more on the back side? Or fill the slot with CA glue and baking soda, or CA glue and bone dust, and cut the slot again.

If it is not the nut it could be the same thing happening on a flat spot in the saddle. Less likely, a fret, or a tuning machine.

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stevemc32
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Re: Long time no build

Post by stevemc32 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:10 pm

Nailed it Mark, I had to push it down with a fingernail over the nut to stop the buzzing but it did the job. Managed to re-file it a little and got it sorted out. So it's all done and sounding great. Thanks for the help throughout to all who contributed.

Now time to finish reading the books and get the shed cleaned up for the next project. Cheers!

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