Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

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joel
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Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by joel » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:15 pm

Hi all,

I've been reading a bit recently about pore filling. The back and sides of my body are a flame Alpine Ash which is mostly pores - seriously I reckon the surface is at least 30% open pores... Most articles and books recommend epoxy. The "Pore Filling 101" thread in the Tutorial section started out advocating egg white, but it appears to have swung back to advocating epoxy over the course of the thread (or shellac and pumice for the crazy FP guys).

Can you fine and knowledgeable people recommend to me some non-epoxy pore filling techniques, methods, tips, tricks, or whatever else takes your fancy really. Or, if epoxy really is so very much superior to all the other methods, please educate me (Bote Cote seems to be a popular epoxy for this application).

I intend to use wipe on poly as my final finish.

Thanks.
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by TallDad71 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:02 pm

My preferred method is shellac and wood dust. The dust is the sanded down end grain from the leftover back and sides so the colour is perfect. I then mix them into a very very fluid paste on a plastic board and rub it in with my finger.
It’s relatively simple to sand back, it does take at least two applications though to fill all the pores.
Alan
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joel
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by joel » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:53 pm

Hi Alan,

What sort of cut do you make your shellac before mixing with the sawdust? Amber, Blonde?
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by kiwigeo » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:46 pm

I use both epoxy and the pumice method. I french polish all my instruments. Epoxy is convenient but you're working with epoxy so there are health issues. Pumice pore filling takes a bit of skill to get right but worth the effort and the only real hazard is drinking the alcohol. Ive been using West Systems products for my epoxy filing but I believe Bocote is a better product
Martin

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by Mark McLean » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:18 pm

You just need some sort of material to sink into the space of the pores and fill the voids, and some ingredient mixed in that will turn solid and keep it there. Many things can do the job. Apart from the ones that you have already mentioned, others you will find discussed include wood fillers like Timbermate brand (get it at Bunnings or anywhere) - try using a dark colour like the ebony tint to accentuate the grain. Another is plaster filler (known as drywall filler in the US), watered down a bit and maybe with a dark tint added. Those two options have the advantage of being water soluble, cheap and non-toxic. You can put it on very liberally and then sand back to bare wood. Superglue is effective, cheap and quick - but also stinky and messy.

But hang on - first ask yourself if you really need to pore fill at all? Every time this topic comes up it sends me off into a bit of a rant - please forgive me! Many people seem to assume that it is an essential step in finishing - but is isn't necessarily true. Yes, if you want that perfectly even gloss finish that looks like a pane of glass over the wood, you need to fill the pores. But, speaking for myself, I like my wood to look and feel like wood rather than glass or perspex. So I don't pore fill and I go for satin or semi-gloss natural wood look. I realize I am probably in the minority here, and if you are trying to sell your guitars it seems that most punters expect a glossy finish - so my approach would be a loser. It all depends on your preference I guess.

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by TallDad71 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:13 pm

Just your regular mix for shellac is fine.

I agree with you Mark, it should be the first question, wood is beautiful, do I need to make it look like plastic?

For me there is something about the darker woods, Rosewood et al, that lend themselves naturally to a high gloss, the lighter woods , lacewoods, maples etc look stunning with a satin Shellac or oil finish.
Alan
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by johnparchem » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:52 am

I mostly use epoxy, as the clear pulls out the grain of the wood. I personally find the sawdust shellac and pumice method hides the pores as it fills them pores with sort of the average color of the wood. Black or dark fill and clear tends to emphasize them (my personal preference).

I have found AquaCoat https://aquacoat.com/collections/water- ... 6346850117 does a good job on the wood I used, especially Rosewood.

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by 56nortondomy » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:01 pm

If you don't want to use epoxy and I don't blame you, Mark's suggestion of timbermate is a good alternative, I've got aquacoat here and I don't like it at all maybe I'm using it wrong although I don't see how you can. The shellac method is pretty labour intensive, ok for young guys with good shoulders, that counts me out. I prefer the timbermate, goes on easy and sands off easy. I don't pore fill every guitar, as suggested work out exactly what finish you want, maybe you don't need to do it.
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by joel » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:01 pm

Great ideas and tips so far guys, thanks.

I've done some tests with Timbermate and it works pretty well, but the pores of my wood are so big and numerous that the colour of the Timbermate dominates (same result with gyprock plaster filler). I'm getting the feeling from my experiments and your suggestions that any homogeneous fill like Timbermate, plaster, or even shellac and sawdust will probably result in my back and sides becoming plain and homogeneous as well.

Maybe I will need to look into epoxy some more. Or some other clear pore filling method. Perhaps some tint would help the wood to 'pop'? I don't know.
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:38 pm

Something that needs to be addressed is long term sink back.....some of the quick and easy methods suffer from sink back over a period of time.
Martin

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by sebastiaan56 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:37 pm

I got a bottle of Solarez UV pore filler. It takes about 30 seconds to go off in the sun. It does have a the typical UV varnish type smell but saves so much faffing around.
make mine fifths........

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by joel » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:57 pm

I've only just seen some interesting videos about that Solarez "I can't believe it's not Lacquer". Looks very interesting.
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by TallDad71 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:45 pm

56nortondomy wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:01 pm
If you don't want to use epoxy and I don't blame you, Mark's suggestion of timbermate is a good alternative, I've got aquacoat here and I don't like it at all maybe I'm using it wrong although I don't see how you can. The shellac method is pretty labour intensive, ok for young guys with good shoulders, that counts me out. I prefer the timbermate, goes on easy and sands off easy. I don't pore fill every guitar, as suggested work out exactly what finish you want, maybe you don't need to do it.
Wayne
I’ve just received a tub of aqua coat, it seems to go on well, doesn’t discolour the walnut and sand off far better than Shellac or thixotropic grain fillers.
What did you not like about it?
I haven’t examined the results yet.
Alan
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by 56nortondomy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:58 pm

Hi Alan. It doesn't seem to fill the pores, I did 6 coats on an EIRW guitar and it still wasn't completely done. I've still got half a container but I probably won't use it. It does go on easy and sands off easy, I agree with that. Sorry for the thread hijack.
Wayne

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by joel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:43 pm

I just did an experiment using cyanoacrylate on the weekend after I watched a few youtube videos on finishing with cyanoacrylate. It works brilliantly. I used some fine sawdust I'd saved in a jar, rubbed it into the pores, then flooded with thin cyanoacrylate and kinda stirred it until it started to go hard (about 15 seconds). Another application later with some light sanding in between (to 240), and a single thin coat of wipe-on-poly and the test piece was looking very nice. I tried to sand in the cyanoacrylate to fill the pores with fresh sawdust, but it goes hard too fast. Slow cure cyanoacrylate is very difficult to find! Perhaps medium or thick would work better?

I've also ordered some Solarez "I can't believe its not Lacquer!" to try out. The cyanoacrylate is very stinky. And I imagine filling a large surface would result in overpowering fumes. Apparently the Solarez is "no odor".
- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. - David Daye.

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by johnparchem » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:20 am

I often do a CA pore fill on ukuleles and head stocks veneers. Guitars are too unpleasant to do because of the fumes. I use Gluboost fill and finish, both the regular and the thin. It has a long open time. I use a paper towel (not a cotton rag*) to polish the CA into the pores. I get a very nice result. I do not add any saw dust as I like the way the clear pores read better than the color added by saw dust. Gluboost fill and finish is not as hard as a lot of CAs and is good on guitars. I also use their accelerator.

* I have found that a cotton rag acts like it has accelerator on it; so the CA cures fast and hot on the rag.

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by Dave M » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:57 am

I use aqua Cote and I too don't like it. However I don't like the alternative much either! I end up doing quite a few coats - it really is quite hard to get into the pores. I think last time I was using a credit card.

The end result is however good clear and it doesn't sink back. Dave
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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by Bob Gleason » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:58 am

Does lacquer stick to this Solareze stuff? It probably wets the wood with a different look than a solvent finish, so what about sand throughs? Thanks, Bob

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by lamanoditrento » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:10 am

I do find aqua coat takes a few coats and I usually do a shellac seal coat in between aqua coats. But I like the non-toxic nature, no fumes and how quick it sets, about 30mins. I find you really need to push across the grain, if you go with the grain, you pull it out. I normally use a wadded cloth to apply it.
Trent

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Re: Pore filling methods question (non-epoxy preferred)

Post by sebastiaan56 » Sat May 29, 2021 7:30 pm

Ive not used lacquer Bob, only shellac or Tru Oil. Both have been fine. I do sand back to timber.
make mine fifths........

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