Thanks Serge, glad you enjoyed my post. I get a bit of practice at work. We've each had to learn respect and restraint, particularly on deployment when we live very closely together.
I decided a while ago to shift the debate from evolution v creation to the freedom of scientific thought. Freedom is a subject many can relate to and are willing to discuss.
Asshole-ism. Nature or Nurture? Now there's a topic that'll get emotions really riled!
EUROPEANS WARNED OF THE "DANGERS OF CREATIONISM"
I guess so, must be a good pratice to let others express their views and restrain your speach until they are finished expressing their views indeed !joel wrote:Thanks Serge, glad you enjoyed my post. I get a bit of practice at work. We've each had to learn respect and restraint, particularly on deployment when we live very closely together.
I decided a while ago to shift the debate from evolution v creation to the freedom of scientific thought. Freedom is a subject many can relate to and are willing to discuss.
Asshole-ism. Nature or Nurture? Now there's a topic that'll get emotions really riled!
I love that expression Joel, free thinkers shouldn't be afraid of that either! Thanks bro !
Ars*^le, wasn't that a title of a spaceship commander in a star war parody?
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
Hi Joel,joel wrote:
I decided a while ago to shift the debate from evolution v creation to the freedom of scientific thought.
The above sentence sums up my problem with creationism....no matter which way you look at it, it just doesnt have anything to do with science.
In the most simplisitc terms, science is an attempt to understand the natural world in purely naturalistic terms....ie there cannot be a supernatural intervention of any sort. As soon as any supernatural being or power becomes involved in the equation it becomes religion.
Hi Martin, i'll let Joel answer your question since it was addressed to him but was tempted to say that you have parts of the answer in your last post bro.kiwigeo wrote:
Hi Joel,
The above sentence sums up my problem with creationism....no matter which way you look at it, it just doesnt have anything to do with science.
In the most simplisitc terms, science is an attempt to understand the natural world in purely naturalistic terms....ie there cannot be a supernatural intervention of any sort. As soon as any supernatural being or power becomes involved in the equation it becomes religion.
It is only an assumption Martin, It has everything to do with science and demonstrable facts that are being suppressed by the mainstream culture for many reasons, one that i can think of is that man has always been rebellious to the idea that there is a Supreme being over his head that can read his thoughts and see everything he does and judges and thus would hinder man's free will which in the mind of man is just an assumption made by creating a God in man's image, man became the little god of his own little universe. Evolution and it's independance from a God is then just another religion or belief system taught in schools, college and universities by men wanting to pursue their own agendas and lusts without an overshadowing God.
As for science, the proofs of creationism are right there in plain sight, it is just a matter of getting rid of the religious assumptions and etiquette and then one can really see the evidence. In supernatural, you have natural, which means that God is above that creation that we are. The Bible is the only book that has 100% acuracy in the claims that it makes and is an authenticated and integrated message dedicated to the creation, a love letter written in blood 2007 years ago.
Hitler once said that the bigger the lie is, the more people would believe in it and with all due respect, brilliant Germans fell for a lie perpetrated against the Jews and 6 millions of them were slaughtered. Iran's president is now calling the Holocaust a "myth" and some are tempted to believe him which is totally absurd, and sadly, history is about to repeat itself.
I will reiterate that i do believe with all of my heart that people who believe in evolution are very intelligent and brilliant people but to make a parallel, i believe also that all of us have been exposed to that gigantic and well orchestrated lie so that a supposed elite of free thinkers could pursue their own lusts without accountability and put all their resources together so that the masses would follow them in such a convincing way that the people of faith would look weak in their minds which is utterly ridiculous. You may not see that now but even if you think like them, since they are in positions of power, you and i are just like cattle to them, consume or you'll get consumed... which one is enslaved?
Don't take my word for it bro, just do your homework looking at everything without suppositions nor assumptions.
Serge
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
I'm not going to take a position here because I believe that everyone has inalienable rights to believe what ever they wish or not.
Naw, I could never not take a position.......
Another way to look at this commenting on what Serge just said is that man, meaning the human race, did indeed find it desirable to believe in a superior being in as much as this meant that we are not alone. The idea of the superior being - God - also permits the possibility of hope and the practice of faith. Hope and faith are positive things and will make some people stronger.
Many of today's institutions no longer look or act like they did long ago when they were created. In the past new ideas were largely a response to something that was perceived as lacking and often a very basic, survival need. The American labor union movement was formed because of a "need" to protect workers from unscrupulous companies. Political parties passed out hams in neighborhoods where people were hungry.
Being a "believer" once had an everyday benefit in as much as many churches took care of their members with even the basic needs. Some still do and the missionary movement is an excellent example of faith based organizations improving the human condition by feeding the needy.
My country is at war....... A kid, 19 years old....., who lived near me was killed a few days ago in Iraq. For what?????? Do we honestly believe that inside every Iraqi is an American just chomping at the bit to be let out and play democracy....... Regardless of the nay sayers the war in Iraq is a clash of cultures and that means a clash of religions - again........... Every single combatant in theater is from a faction that believes in something different from each other....... Same shit - different day......
Perhaps, just perhaps the real important question here is not how it all came about. Instead the important question is where are we going to go from here? Will we learn that what works for us may not work or be desirable to others. From my perspective this is something that humans have rarely realized and the core reason for most of the wars in history.
Naw, I could never not take a position.......
Another way to look at this commenting on what Serge just said is that man, meaning the human race, did indeed find it desirable to believe in a superior being in as much as this meant that we are not alone. The idea of the superior being - God - also permits the possibility of hope and the practice of faith. Hope and faith are positive things and will make some people stronger.
Many of today's institutions no longer look or act like they did long ago when they were created. In the past new ideas were largely a response to something that was perceived as lacking and often a very basic, survival need. The American labor union movement was formed because of a "need" to protect workers from unscrupulous companies. Political parties passed out hams in neighborhoods where people were hungry.
Being a "believer" once had an everyday benefit in as much as many churches took care of their members with even the basic needs. Some still do and the missionary movement is an excellent example of faith based organizations improving the human condition by feeding the needy.
My country is at war....... A kid, 19 years old....., who lived near me was killed a few days ago in Iraq. For what?????? Do we honestly believe that inside every Iraqi is an American just chomping at the bit to be let out and play democracy....... Regardless of the nay sayers the war in Iraq is a clash of cultures and that means a clash of religions - again........... Every single combatant in theater is from a faction that believes in something different from each other....... Same shit - different day......
Perhaps, just perhaps the real important question here is not how it all came about. Instead the important question is where are we going to go from here? Will we learn that what works for us may not work or be desirable to others. From my perspective this is something that humans have rarely realized and the core reason for most of the wars in history.
For a second there you almost had me convinced that you were politicly correct !Hesh1956 wrote:
I'm not going to take a position here because I believe that everyone has inalienable rights to believe what ever they wish or not.
Naw, I could never not take a position.......
Now what took ye so long bro? 
Hesh1956 wrote: meaning the human race, did indeed find it desirable to believe in a superior being in as much as this meant that we are not alone. The idea of the superior being - God - also permits the possibility of hope and the practice of faith. Hope and faith are positive things and will make some people stronger.
Hesh, faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God so therefore, the Word of God was there before man and there's ample evidence to back up that statement. Some will recognize it's authority and others will rebel against it. I did come to real faith by hearing and sensing deep in my heart that what i had heard was true.
But afterwards, the scientific and CSI type evidence came through investigation on matters of faith in Christianity of course but also in other religions of the world and in secular history as well. Even though you've hit it on the nail with the positive outcomes that faith generates, it is not just a matter of being a good person by feeding the poor or a strong person having exceeding hope but also a quest for absolute truth ( i can hear some grinding teeths!
) concerning our origins, our purpose here-now and certainty/assurance about destiny for the after-life which i and many millions of others have found in true christianity. There are a lot of denominational religions whose members call themselves christians but don't bear the fruits and misinterpret what the Scriptures are saying and thus have done a lot of harm in the name of christianity(crusades, inquisitions, wars) and for which reason i'm no longer a Roman catholic, too much harm done to the human race by the political power of the papacy.
Then you have a bunch of religions that have an allegoric view of Scriptures hence the notion of fairy tales for grown ups that resulted from that view, the results were devastating and are evident in family crisis, alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling, sex addiction and so on.. Some people will say" God bless you! " but you can really wonder which god they serve if all they have at the back of their mind is hatred and war or to coerce you to see things their way.
Hey Serge, will you tell us about true Christianity then?!!!
Of course i will, suuuuure!
It is about taking the Word of God very seriously, God says what He means and means what He says. True Christianity is not about judging people but about truly loving them as they are even the tough cases like the one that i am!
It is about a blessed hope of eternal life if you put your trust in the one that God the Father has sent ie in His Son Jesus Christ who died on a cross to deliver us fron our sins and from the lies of the devil. Jesus was strapped to a cross so that even a terrorist wouldn't have to strap a bomb to his waist. Jesus is the God who created this world and is the one who saves us from this fallen world also.The notion i used to have was that the Bible was written for clergy people or people of cloth from man-made religions only but i discovered that this wonderful "Ancestry heritage" was a collection of 66 books penned by 40 different authors over a period of several thousands of years, these were prophets directly inspired by God and their predictions are verifiable by 100% acuracy in the prophetic time table, that is the way God authenticated His message to us earthlings, He can see real events thousands of years in advance. Not a chance of man-made conspiracy there, archeological sites in Israel also certifie about the names and cities mentionned in the sacred texts.
What i'm talking about here is history facts that the God i serve was raised from the dead and can do the same for me. He's not just a figment of my imagination, not just a smoky ghost in a movie, He's real, He's powerful, He lives and wants to develop a relationship with every single human being on earth.
Serge
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
The problem I see with all this is that some people are taking written words and using them as the 'be all-end all', the core of their value judgments and the very salvation of their souls...'the way'...
Any book of worship, be it the Bible or the Koran, these books all have one thing in common. They were written by men. Period. They were written by men who for what ever personal beliefs and ulterior motives, decided to face immortality by claiming to convey the words and thoughts of gods. How utterly arrogant and presumptuous. Everything wrong in this world was man made, especially religions.
These books also have other things in common. They do preach beautiful and kind thoughts and philosophies. You cannot fault them that.
However, my main problem with these kinds of debates is very simple. You can't take any book of worship and use 'it' as your proof. All the debates I see have these zealous men stomping on their choice book of worship and claiming, 'There, it says so right here!' Others will strap themselves with bombs to prove their righteousness...
Fanaticism wears many masks and can be exhibited in varying degrees...but just don't tell the addicts.
Any book of worship, be it the Bible or the Koran, these books all have one thing in common. They were written by men. Period. They were written by men who for what ever personal beliefs and ulterior motives, decided to face immortality by claiming to convey the words and thoughts of gods. How utterly arrogant and presumptuous. Everything wrong in this world was man made, especially religions.
These books also have other things in common. They do preach beautiful and kind thoughts and philosophies. You cannot fault them that.
However, my main problem with these kinds of debates is very simple. You can't take any book of worship and use 'it' as your proof. All the debates I see have these zealous men stomping on their choice book of worship and claiming, 'There, it says so right here!' Others will strap themselves with bombs to prove their righteousness...
Fanaticism wears many masks and can be exhibited in varying degrees...but just don't tell the addicts.
'Hunting sober is like ...fishing...sober'
Brothers Serge and Joel,
Unfortunately this debate has reached the point where it can go no further. Why? Because we cannot agree on standard definitions for science and religion. I view the two as two seperate and very different approaches to the question as to how we got here. You on the other hand freely see religion and science as one and the same and freely interchange the terms.
The debate has been enjoyable I might say but from here on it becomes an exercise in headbanging and thus counterproductive. The time is better spent in the workshop producing guitars.
Cheers Martin
Unfortunately this debate has reached the point where it can go no further. Why? Because we cannot agree on standard definitions for science and religion. I view the two as two seperate and very different approaches to the question as to how we got here. You on the other hand freely see religion and science as one and the same and freely interchange the terms.
The debate has been enjoyable I might say but from here on it becomes an exercise in headbanging and thus counterproductive. The time is better spent in the workshop producing guitars.
Cheers Martin
Hi bro,Alain wrote:The problem I see with all this is that some people are taking written words and using them as the 'be all-end all', the core of their value judgments and the very salvation of their souls...'the way'... .
I must admit that the claims of Christianity are pretty exclusive in and of themselves and they don't give room to any other deities for salvation matters either but as you saw, i purposely didn't quote much verses from the Bible and didn't feel the need to, honestly. I don't need to defend the Bible, the Bible defends itself rather well.
[/quote]Any book of worship, be it the Bible or the Koran, these books all have one thing in common. They were written by men..[/quote]
Agreed there but inspired by whom is the real question bro, the veracity and approval or falsehood and dismissal of any kind of deity doctrines can be obtained by serious scrutiny of history records, even outside of the texts themselves. The other way you can verify if the claims of the whole book are true or utterly false is to juxtapose all of it with prophecy and in that department, the Bible stands ALONE, the Quran don't even start to come close, it only claims of having certain prophecies pertaining to the end times while the Bible is filled with over 1800 prophecies, more than 300 of them were fulfilled acurately with the first coming of Jesus Christ as the Son of God/Son of man. Some of the prophecies are being fulfilled as we speak and are so acurate that it is jaw-dropping to see them being fulfilled so quickly before our very eyes. Just look at what is going on between Russia, Syria, Iran and Hezbolah in conjection with Israel, i will not give verses here but we can clearly see in prophecy what is taking place worldwide. The rest of these prophecies will be fulfilled at His second coming.
The Bible albeit written by the hands of men, was written by 40 different men over many centuries, is inspired by God and is too well designed for men to have come up with it, all of the text points to Jesus Christ from beginning to end, Old Testament and New Testament combined, an integrated message so intricately well designed that it has the fingerprints of the Holy Spirit all over it. My last assumption before reading it was that Jesus appeared in the New Testament only, i soon found out that He was there right at the beginning, before time itself. So well designed that as a matter of fact, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed, add to that the fact that they are finding numeric codes within the layers of texts that clearly show a message of extra-terrestrial origin. No men of that era could have come up with that unless divinely guided.
As for the Quran, the inspiration came to the prophet mohammed in ~ 622 AD, in a cave while he was asleep, the revelation he had while sleeping was more than questionable and had all the marks of demonic possession but his wife told him that it was god and he believed her. The allah that they worship is known in history as " the moon god"( a false god), they have a Jesus (ah, lookie here!)but they deny his deity, they deny his crucifixion, they only see him as a prophet, my Jesus is God, nothing less.
The religion of the Quran is " WORK BASED" (scales) ie that by being a good boy you have to work out your salvation and you can never be sure of your salvation unless you engage in JIHAD (Holy War) and kill all those INFIDELS while in Christianity, all you have to do is to " BELIEVE" in the One who was sent (Messiah), to invite Him into your heart and with His divine help(Holy Spirit), turn away from the things that don't please God which is the only way to be seen as righteous by God BTW, ie to believe in His only begotten Son and to fully trust Him.. In Christianity, there is nothing that you can humanly do to be saved, no good deeds nor good works, just faith. Revelation from above, not man made.
In other words, Islam is a very dangerous sect just as Mormonism(LDS) is one although they claim to be Christians. The prophet of mormonism is Joseph Smith Jr who also had a questionable apparition by some angel called Moroni , the book of mormons is filled with false history that you can't even retrace anywhere even if you would dig deep for thousands of years, it just isn't there, they got nothing. Similar religions, revelation from below (man made) or acceptance of human teachings as true by all the members of those sects by fear of rejection and in the case of Islam, better accept or else you die. They clearly don't have the same God of love that i have.
[/quote]Fanaticism wears many masks and can be exhibited in varying degrees...but just don't tell the addicts.[/quote]
Alain, i think you do remember that i clearly said to you one day: "I'm a Jesus Freak" which made you grin IIRC right?
One thing you gotta understand bro, i didn't choose Jesus, it's the other way around, He chose me first. He did the drawing, He knocked at my door and i let Him in, He then touched me personaly and said "Gotcha !!!"
Born again!Love
Serge
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
Ok with me bro, i liked the part where Joel explained that none of all these theories could explain the origins unless we all had a time machine to go and see for ourselves though, that would be too neat!kiwigeo wrote:Brothers Serge and Joel,
Unfortunately this debate has reached the point where it can go no further. Why? Because we cannot agree on standard definitions for science and religion. I view the two as two seperate and very different approaches to the question as to how we got here. You on the other hand freely see religion and science as one and the same and freely interchange the terms.
The debate has been enjoyable I might say but from here on it becomes an exercise in headbanging and thus counterproductive. The time is better spent in the workshop producing guitars.
Cheers Martin
Great debate and also great discussion indeed!
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
Well said Alain. 
Like Martin I also see science and religion as two separate and very different approaches to the question as to how we got here.
I see science offering a genuine attempt to answer that question rationally by maintaining an open mind and applying the time honoured process of experimental research and observation.
Where as religion has an agenda, nothing open minded here at all. Religious scientist (and I use that term with reservation) have that agenda firmly in place first and then go out into the world seeking out the scientific peg to fit that hole. It is my view that sometimes, when working in the name of ones own God, the temptations would be just too great to resist when just a little whittling of that peg were needed to make it fit. I think when you have faith it is a prerequisite that you put that faith before all else and then it becomes far too easy to justify pulling out that papal pocketknife and getting to work in order to save all those lost soles of humanity.
Quite frankly, and with no disrespect intended, I feel that religious science is tainted and since people have become more educated and have begun to question and scrutinise those traditionally held beliefs of the church, I see religion's selective use of science to repair the ever widening cracks appearing in it's arguments not that far removed from the approach taken by the tobacco companies in the past before they became accountable in the courts.
Anyhow, a big beery breathed luv'in cuddle to you all :bh
Peace
Kim
Like Martin I also see science and religion as two separate and very different approaches to the question as to how we got here.
I see science offering a genuine attempt to answer that question rationally by maintaining an open mind and applying the time honoured process of experimental research and observation.
Where as religion has an agenda, nothing open minded here at all. Religious scientist (and I use that term with reservation) have that agenda firmly in place first and then go out into the world seeking out the scientific peg to fit that hole. It is my view that sometimes, when working in the name of ones own God, the temptations would be just too great to resist when just a little whittling of that peg were needed to make it fit. I think when you have faith it is a prerequisite that you put that faith before all else and then it becomes far too easy to justify pulling out that papal pocketknife and getting to work in order to save all those lost soles of humanity.
Quite frankly, and with no disrespect intended, I feel that religious science is tainted and since people have become more educated and have begun to question and scrutinise those traditionally held beliefs of the church, I see religion's selective use of science to repair the ever widening cracks appearing in it's arguments not that far removed from the approach taken by the tobacco companies in the past before they became accountable in the courts.
Anyhow, a big beery breathed luv'in cuddle to you all :bh
Peace
Kim
Somewhere and somehow Kim, i agree with you, either all these theories are all taught on an equal basis or all of them be removed from schools, all 3 views have nothing scientific and all are religious at their bases and by nature which means that you have to "believe" on the footing they all rest on. One of those religious theories is still being taught in schools today though and with fraudulent texts to attempt to lure kids in "believing" that they come from slime, that their ancestors are a bunch of animals , it is such an aberration and tax payer's money is spent to keep that religion there.
As a matter of fact, i'd rather see prayers done at home or in a church than in schools and religious views be kept out of there as well, kids don't need to be taught lies. We're here to show them how to love one another.
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
When I lived in Israel I would travel frequently to see the many, many historical sites. One weekend we went to the church where in the caves/grottos below it is believed that the original "single" bible was translated into other languages. I am not sure on this one but I think that the original bible was thought to be written in Latin.
Anyway picture this - you are in caves 3-4 levels below street level and these caves have rooms. It was in these rooms that the original bible was translated by monks into 6 other languages. Or at least that is how the site is presented to the public.
In the center of every single room was a large, earthen water pipe...... Seriously. And the tour guides will tell you that the story was that these monks who devoted their lives to translating the original bible were stoned out of their minds on opium and hashish 24/7.
Nice work if you can get it.....
Anyway this brings into question exactly what Alain (Al to me) mentioned about the bible being written by man. It was also interpreted by man too and according to the historians at the actual site by man who was in need of some cold beer for the cotton mouth and snacks for the munchies.........
Well you know what happens when you tell a story to another and they pass it on and on etc. It changes because humans either can't remember the story or embellish, or are creative and add to it, etc......
Don't get me wrong I am not discounting the bible I am only pointing out that Al's assertion that man may have polluted the bible is an assertion that I have some personal knowledge about having visited this site.
Serge bro Martin's point that we all here do not agree on what is true science is a good point too. So what you believe can never be "proven" to all in a manner that is consistent with everyone's definition of science.
But this does not make what you believe untrue it just means that you will not be able to convince everyone. But you know this so I am not telling you anything new.
As a man with no personal religious beliefs I remain very impressed and inspired by your devotion to your beliefs Serge. And most importantly you live what you believe every moment of every single day. This sincerity of purpose that you have and the damn good man that you are remains a guiding light to some of us and this includes me.
I have no personal knowledge of if the man called Jesus and believed by many to be the son of God ever even existed. But Serge I know you exist in the present, have a huge kind heart, and put people and their well being before all other things. Your example in all that you do and say is very much appreciated Serge.
Anyway picture this - you are in caves 3-4 levels below street level and these caves have rooms. It was in these rooms that the original bible was translated by monks into 6 other languages. Or at least that is how the site is presented to the public.
In the center of every single room was a large, earthen water pipe......
Seriously. And the tour guides will tell you that the story was that these monks who devoted their lives to translating the original bible were stoned out of their minds on opium and hashish 24/7.Nice work if you can get it.....
Anyway this brings into question exactly what Alain (Al to me) mentioned about the bible being written by man. It was also interpreted by man too and according to the historians at the actual site by man who was in need of some cold beer for the cotton mouth and snacks for the munchies.........
Well you know what happens when you tell a story to another and they pass it on and on etc. It changes because humans either can't remember the story or embellish, or are creative and add to it, etc......
Don't get me wrong I am not discounting the bible I am only pointing out that Al's assertion that man may have polluted the bible is an assertion that I have some personal knowledge about having visited this site.
Serge bro Martin's point that we all here do not agree on what is true science is a good point too. So what you believe can never be "proven" to all in a manner that is consistent with everyone's definition of science.
But this does not make what you believe untrue it just means that you will not be able to convince everyone. But you know this so I am not telling you anything new.
As a man with no personal religious beliefs I remain very impressed and inspired by your devotion to your beliefs Serge. And most importantly you live what you believe every moment of every single day. This sincerity of purpose that you have and the damn good man that you are remains a guiding light to some of us and this includes me.
I have no personal knowledge of if the man called Jesus and believed by many to be the son of God ever even existed. But Serge I know you exist in the present, have a huge kind heart, and put people and their well being before all other things. Your example in all that you do and say is very much appreciated Serge.
Hesh, i'm not laughing at you but at the story in Israel with the monks and beer, i mean man! That was funny bro, thanks!
One thing you all know for sure guys is that i do love you all very much. I only hope that you all can see me as a friend who will not just say nice things to be accepted by my friends but if i see that my friend's house is on fire, i will be the one to tell him to get out even if my friend is on "denial mode". I used to want to be accepted and made many many friends that way everywhere i went but back then, i was politicly correct. Things have changed, i'd rather hear the truth even if it hurts my feelings and wish to do the same for those i love and that means a lot to me.
The message of Christ is not a popular message to all ears, it can be offensive and irritating to the average intellectual who receives it as foolishness just as if those who believe in it and talk about it are weak minded but i think in all fairness i can honestly say that i managed to send a rational message and did not pound on your head with the Gospel message, my posts would have been way much longer than they have been, believe me!
Now that made me laugh real hard!Hesh1956 wrote:Anyway this brings into question exactly what Alain (Al to me) mentioned about the bible being written by man. It was also interpreted by man too and according to the historians at the actual site by man who was in need of some cold beer for the cotton mouth and snacks for the munchies.........
No disrespect for Al though, he knows i love him too, it's just the monk and beer story ! Seriously though, what i have talked about here so far is not even known by all christians nor is it understood by all Jews except for the Messianic ones. Some catholics who profess to be christians don't even have a clue of what i'm talking about because they do not read their Bibles and for the common Jew in Israel Hesh, many of them did not recognize their Messiah when He came although His coming in Jerusalem on a donkey was prophesied by the prophet Daniel 173,880 days in advance and it came to pass exactly as predicted. But the Hebrews did not recognize Him as being their Messiah and are still living under the Law of Moses today, still waiting for Him. But he's not done with them yet, He's coming back to hurt those who want to wipe them off the map...
Hesh, bro, this is what is being sent right and left to discredit the Bible, Dan Brown's Da Vinci code style, Oprah Winfrey, Dr Phil, Discovery Channel, man, i mean, where do yo get your truth bro? Hollywood? Mainstream media? Next time you visit Israel bro, talk to the Messianic Jews! Hmmmmkay?Hesh1956 wrote: Well you know what happens when you tell a story to another and they pass it on and on etc. It changes because humans either can't remember the story or embellish, or are creative and add to it, etc......
Don't get me wrong I am not discounting the bible I am only pointing out that Al's assertion that man may have polluted the bible is an assertion that I have some personal knowledge about having visited this site.
Let's make something clear here for a moment, languages have changed and have evolved(did i say that?
) indeed but the message DID NOT!How do i know for sure you might ask?
You can get yourself a 2007 edition Bible and compare it with the most ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts preserved and it is all there, letter for letter, word for word for both the Old and the New Testament, over 25 000 ancient manuscripts were found and we're able to rebuild the entire Bible, in the case of the Old, the manuscripts that were found in the Qumran area in 1947 (Dead sea scrolls) date from 200 BC IIRC and which are remnants of the book of the prophet Isaiah written 3 or 5 centuries before that. If you compare the Dead sea scrolls with the same book in your 2007 Bible, the letters and the words match perfectly, again, letter for letter, word for word! God did say that His Word would not pass away, not a jot nor a tittle.
As for the New Testament alone, we have all these manuscripts that are the same as in your Bible today, letter for letter, word for word and written within 10-15 years of Jesus' passage in Galilea, there so much manuscripts to rebuild the New Testament alone that Homer's Iliad, the wars that Caesar fought are pale in comparison in terms of manuscripts detailing their lives but nobody in the secular world questions the existence of these very men though. Think i know why!
[/color]Language changes and man made stories will change from one man to another but we're talking God's Word here, it will never change except if men decide to write a bible to suit their needs hence the book of mormons and the Quran for instance. The Bible did not change.
Voltaire once said that christianity and the Bible would be wiped off the world scene within the next 50 years, he died and his house became a Bible printing place, God takes His Word very seriously too ya know!
Love
Serge
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
Any Christian that gets into discussions about proof has really never had the real understanding about the core of Christ's teaching. This world is not about proof. It is about faith. Faith is the hope or belief in truth based on the spirit of truth which one can sense/feel by the spirit of peace in prayer and meditations.
The power of faith is not just some hope in an imagined condition or situation which may or may not be true, faith is the precursor to knowledge.
Most, and especially "Christians" don't understand the concept of faith at all! Many Christians seem to feel that all they have to do is ask and they get what they want, if they ask hard enough or are worthy enough, what ever that means in their case. Faith is not that.
The spriit of peace that comes over one in prayer which is the binding action of all religions, Buddist, Moslem, Hindu.... is prayer. It is the heart of any real religion. That peace is the word of God in itself.
Faith, is much like one who goes to work with the belief that he will be payed. There are no guarantees that he will be payed but he goes anyway in the trust that he will be... and it is true! Truth is a necessary part of faith if it doesnt happen it is not faith.
The point of faith is one can sense the truth before it happens if one applies himself to it. Some have considered me intelligent and to some degree that is true, but more appropriately I actually go to the Lord in prayer and have learned that this actually works. It takes time and experience to recognize the answers. One can be given key to understanding that many would be amazed at. Plain things, that are so obvious which is the hand print of Father in Heaven himself.
Most answers to prayer are different from what the one normally seeks. I.E. Many search for answers in the yes or no form, but the real answer is perhaps ...blue, or maybe, or maybe not! One won't recognize the answer is one doesn't look at all the possibilities.
I believe in evolution for the most part I also believe in creation, they are not mutually exclusive, though the common held perception makes this seemed strained.
The real example of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, though again, I believe actually happened, is that Adam and Eve applies to us! As we gain experience in the world this is taking the knowledge of good and evil! In so doing we will make mistakes! That's it!!! The process of repentance is not some groveling in fained unworthyness but the real realization that Father in heaven has the answer no matter what we may see or understand of our own observence bt worldly means.
As a course of warning to Chrisitians, there is much more to the Garden of Eden than what is applied to some "commonly accepted scripture".
According to Jewish tradition, which is the basis of all Christian scripture vis-a- vis, the Christian has no scripture except by the mouth and hand of a Jew, that includes Christ himself, there was a woman offered to Adam before Eve, by the name of Lilith who would not submit to Adam and was destroyed.
Also accordingly, Adam was in the Garden of Eden for what would be considered by us, for some time, perhaps thousand of years, before Eve was introduced because there was no time. The scriptural report of Father in Heaven holding back the sun so the Children of Israel could destroy there enemies evidences that Father in Heaven is not subject ot time, time is subject to Father in heaven.
There's a statement made in the Declaration of Independence where the countries founding fathers refer to nature and natures God! This is an extremely important concept to remember. As God is what he is then nature itself would answer to him and using nature as an attempt to disprove his existance is obvoiusly flawed. This is a spiritual concern first and foremost.
What Hesh has said about hashish smoking monks is far too true. There are many books mentioned in the bible that we don't have. First and second Corinthians before the first and second Corinthians we have today is not a few.
Scripture worship, Priest worship, Church worship are all to common falsehoods followed by many Christians today. Get to know that God by the spirit of God that comes upon one in prayer by peace and things will become quite clear and useful soon enough.
The power of faith is not just some hope in an imagined condition or situation which may or may not be true, faith is the precursor to knowledge.
Most, and especially "Christians" don't understand the concept of faith at all! Many Christians seem to feel that all they have to do is ask and they get what they want, if they ask hard enough or are worthy enough, what ever that means in their case. Faith is not that.
The spriit of peace that comes over one in prayer which is the binding action of all religions, Buddist, Moslem, Hindu.... is prayer. It is the heart of any real religion. That peace is the word of God in itself.
Faith, is much like one who goes to work with the belief that he will be payed. There are no guarantees that he will be payed but he goes anyway in the trust that he will be... and it is true! Truth is a necessary part of faith if it doesnt happen it is not faith.
The point of faith is one can sense the truth before it happens if one applies himself to it. Some have considered me intelligent and to some degree that is true, but more appropriately I actually go to the Lord in prayer and have learned that this actually works. It takes time and experience to recognize the answers. One can be given key to understanding that many would be amazed at. Plain things, that are so obvious which is the hand print of Father in Heaven himself.
Most answers to prayer are different from what the one normally seeks. I.E. Many search for answers in the yes or no form, but the real answer is perhaps ...blue, or maybe, or maybe not! One won't recognize the answer is one doesn't look at all the possibilities.
I believe in evolution for the most part I also believe in creation, they are not mutually exclusive, though the common held perception makes this seemed strained.
The real example of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, though again, I believe actually happened, is that Adam and Eve applies to us! As we gain experience in the world this is taking the knowledge of good and evil! In so doing we will make mistakes! That's it!!! The process of repentance is not some groveling in fained unworthyness but the real realization that Father in heaven has the answer no matter what we may see or understand of our own observence bt worldly means.
As a course of warning to Chrisitians, there is much more to the Garden of Eden than what is applied to some "commonly accepted scripture".
According to Jewish tradition, which is the basis of all Christian scripture vis-a- vis, the Christian has no scripture except by the mouth and hand of a Jew, that includes Christ himself, there was a woman offered to Adam before Eve, by the name of Lilith who would not submit to Adam and was destroyed.
Also accordingly, Adam was in the Garden of Eden for what would be considered by us, for some time, perhaps thousand of years, before Eve was introduced because there was no time. The scriptural report of Father in Heaven holding back the sun so the Children of Israel could destroy there enemies evidences that Father in Heaven is not subject ot time, time is subject to Father in heaven.
There's a statement made in the Declaration of Independence where the countries founding fathers refer to nature and natures God! This is an extremely important concept to remember. As God is what he is then nature itself would answer to him and using nature as an attempt to disprove his existance is obvoiusly flawed. This is a spiritual concern first and foremost.
What Hesh has said about hashish smoking monks is far too true. There are many books mentioned in the bible that we don't have. First and second Corinthians before the first and second Corinthians we have today is not a few.
Scripture worship, Priest worship, Church worship are all to common falsehoods followed by many Christians today. Get to know that God by the spirit of God that comes upon one in prayer by peace and things will become quite clear and useful soon enough.
That's it, you blew my brains out you Billy man, i'm callling the doc!
:bear
Billy is one of the few persons who gave me reasons why i should go on that quest for truth, i remember that personal message where you had taught me about the pharisees and the inquisitions IIRC.
I'll have to reread you a second time, i don't think i get it all for now but i'll say one thing or 2,
1-Bingo for the faith, that's what it's all about,faith, love, truth, not debates nor burden of proofs but i was really pleased to provide the informations that i have found in a way to challenge the too common perceptions of who Father in Heaven is and who Jesus is and what His Word means to humanity.
If i'm guilty of something bro, i think that it maybe a spiritual pride of some sort or that i sometimes talk about Him "in the flesh" rather than "in the Spirit " which could hinder my witnessing to close family members and dear friends but being a recently born again, i do have that tendency although i did pray before writing my few last posts. Gotta remember that God is in control no matter what happens right?
2- A relationship with Him more than a religion, aligning our will with His, prayerfully, getting to know Him through His Word and not from all the scholars that are out there even though there are excellent ones, the Holy Spirit remains the best teacher that we have and He's the One who brings us into all truths
ok, make it 3
3- If i had a last message to bring on this, it would be for my friends not to take my word because in the end, it's His Word that matters, not mine, His will be done, not mine.
Thanks bro.
Serge
:bear
Billy is one of the few persons who gave me reasons why i should go on that quest for truth, i remember that personal message where you had taught me about the pharisees and the inquisitions IIRC.
I'll have to reread you a second time, i don't think i get it all for now but i'll say one thing or 2,
1-Bingo for the faith, that's what it's all about,faith, love, truth, not debates nor burden of proofs but i was really pleased to provide the informations that i have found in a way to challenge the too common perceptions of who Father in Heaven is and who Jesus is and what His Word means to humanity.
If i'm guilty of something bro, i think that it maybe a spiritual pride of some sort or that i sometimes talk about Him "in the flesh" rather than "in the Spirit " which could hinder my witnessing to close family members and dear friends but being a recently born again, i do have that tendency although i did pray before writing my few last posts. Gotta remember that God is in control no matter what happens right?
2- A relationship with Him more than a religion, aligning our will with His, prayerfully, getting to know Him through His Word and not from all the scholars that are out there even though there are excellent ones, the Holy Spirit remains the best teacher that we have and He's the One who brings us into all truths
ok, make it 3
3- If i had a last message to bring on this, it would be for my friends not to take my word because in the end, it's His Word that matters, not mine, His will be done, not mine.
Thanks bro.
Serge
Last edited by Serge on Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jesus, family, friends, guitar and mandolin : D
Hi everyone!
I get busy for a few days and look what happens!
Kiwigeo,
You're right. A few definitions would definitely help at this point.
Science = an attempt to understand the natural world. Using whatever terms are necessary to fully and completely explain life, the universe, and everything. (42?)
Religion = the worst thing to afflict mankind in it's entire history. At it's best its simply a money making machine (just look at Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard himself said that the best way to make money is to create a religion). At its worst it is mans attempt to justify atrocities.
I believe in God. I don't believe in religion. To me the debate has nothing to do with science vs. religion simply because religion is a non-entity. The debate is purely about science.
I'll go back to scientific first principles for a bit. Whenever somebody wants to do or test something in a scientific sense they must establish their initial conditions, ie. The set of assumed existing known elements and the set of rules by which they will interpret the results. For example: if we want to test the mathematical theory 1 + 1 = 2, then we must begin with the assumed existing elements; i) that the quantity 1 is known, and ii) the operator + is known. The rules by which we will interpret the results of this test are given by the correct operation of the operator +.
Now, in the debate of evolution vs. creation, scientists on both sides of the debate use exactly the same evidence. This is plainly evident. We both have the same fossil record, the same periodic table of elements, the same mathematical tools, and the same night sky. Where the differences come into play is the set of initial conditions, the assumptions by which they will test and interpret the physical evidence. (Note the use of the word “assumptionsâ€
I get busy for a few days and look what happens!
Kiwigeo,
You're right. A few definitions would definitely help at this point.
Science = an attempt to understand the natural world. Using whatever terms are necessary to fully and completely explain life, the universe, and everything. (42?)
Religion = the worst thing to afflict mankind in it's entire history. At it's best its simply a money making machine (just look at Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard himself said that the best way to make money is to create a religion). At its worst it is mans attempt to justify atrocities.
I believe in God. I don't believe in religion. To me the debate has nothing to do with science vs. religion simply because religion is a non-entity. The debate is purely about science.
I'll go back to scientific first principles for a bit. Whenever somebody wants to do or test something in a scientific sense they must establish their initial conditions, ie. The set of assumed existing known elements and the set of rules by which they will interpret the results. For example: if we want to test the mathematical theory 1 + 1 = 2, then we must begin with the assumed existing elements; i) that the quantity 1 is known, and ii) the operator + is known. The rules by which we will interpret the results of this test are given by the correct operation of the operator +.
Now, in the debate of evolution vs. creation, scientists on both sides of the debate use exactly the same evidence. This is plainly evident. We both have the same fossil record, the same periodic table of elements, the same mathematical tools, and the same night sky. Where the differences come into play is the set of initial conditions, the assumptions by which they will test and interpret the physical evidence. (Note the use of the word “assumptionsâ€
- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. - David Daye.
- The mouth of a happy man is filled with beer. -
- The mouth of a happy man is filled with beer. -
-
Rod True
- Siberian Tiger
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:18 am
- Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
OK, I just spent the last hour writing a response to this thread and just when I finished with the spell checker (I was writing on-line, not in word) something happened where my browser "backed" and I lost the entire post.
Coincident??????
I may re-write it, but who knows.
Coincident??????
I may re-write it, but who knows.
"I wish one of the voices in your head would tell you to shut the hell up." - Warren De Montegue
On the subject of text, the bible in its current form was decided on by a group of early church dudes who got together in a place called Nicea (Spelling?) and had an almighty (get it?) debate about which books, texts or letters should be included. It's no secret that there are many texts that were excluded from the 'official' bible. The Book of Ester being perhaps the most famous. But others are known, even ones from the dead sea scrolls I think. If you're interested, good Christian bookshops will carry some of these books. If you believe in the ability of God to do anything, then you'll believe that God influenced these early church dudes so that the current bible is indeed what God wants. If you don't believe, then the bible becomes simply an omnibus of holy writings. (I love that word. Omnibus. Imagine a commuter bus but designed my Escher 
)
Of course, the beginning of the bible , the first five books, is the Jewish Torah, and the first testament of the bible (the Jewish Tanakh) is common to both Christian and Jewish faiths. But the Jews believe that Jesus was just another prophet and not the saviour. So at the end of the day Jews and Christians believe in pretty much the same thing just at differing points in time. The Jews still live under the law, i.e. the law of the judges (you know, the books of Judges in the first testament?), whereas Christians live in the time of salvation, i.e. in the second testament, and are called spiritual Israelites, i.e. we are accepted into the nation of Israel (which is the apple of God's eye, his favourite people). Most Christian 'religious' organizations (eg the Catholics) have forgotten this and have tried over centuries to turn Jesus into a white guy. He wasn't. He was a Jew. Dark curly hair, tan skin, the works, and probably fiscally retentive as well
.
Historical texts, to be acceptable in documentary research must be verifiable. They must have other works that reference them, or link to them in some way ie. the authour was a known student of Plato, or sometimes by historians who lived within a few hundred years of the person or event (and so could have had access to only 2nd or 3rd hand info). We know about the great Julius Caesar, by texts written by people who knew him or by historians living within a few hundred years of him. Similarly, we know Jesus in the same fashion. Historically speaking, Jesus is more real than Caesar, as there are far more books and references to him than Caesar.
Also, the Bible is known to have escaped by and incredible degree the 'Chinese whispers' syndrome that affects many historical texts. Does that mean you should automatically believe that it's literally God's word? No. But it is pretty extraordinary all the same. Almost like it has been preserved in some divine fashion?
Here is where we get more into belief:
We have no way of knowing how long Adam lived alone in the Garden of Eden. It must have been some time (the garden was a physical place so there was time. Matter, space and time are all linked according to the scientifically tested Theory of Relativity). He did name all of the types of animals. That must have taken a fair while. As for Lilith, I don’t believe her story. And I haven’t done much research into her, but she appears etymologically to have been a night spirit/demon/Succubus well before the 'first' woman.
Rod, I have the same problem. I just write in word and then cut and paste like you mentioned.
)Of course, the beginning of the bible , the first five books, is the Jewish Torah, and the first testament of the bible (the Jewish Tanakh) is common to both Christian and Jewish faiths. But the Jews believe that Jesus was just another prophet and not the saviour. So at the end of the day Jews and Christians believe in pretty much the same thing just at differing points in time. The Jews still live under the law, i.e. the law of the judges (you know, the books of Judges in the first testament?), whereas Christians live in the time of salvation, i.e. in the second testament, and are called spiritual Israelites, i.e. we are accepted into the nation of Israel (which is the apple of God's eye, his favourite people). Most Christian 'religious' organizations (eg the Catholics) have forgotten this and have tried over centuries to turn Jesus into a white guy. He wasn't. He was a Jew. Dark curly hair, tan skin, the works, and probably fiscally retentive as well
.Historical texts, to be acceptable in documentary research must be verifiable. They must have other works that reference them, or link to them in some way ie. the authour was a known student of Plato, or sometimes by historians who lived within a few hundred years of the person or event (and so could have had access to only 2nd or 3rd hand info). We know about the great Julius Caesar, by texts written by people who knew him or by historians living within a few hundred years of him. Similarly, we know Jesus in the same fashion. Historically speaking, Jesus is more real than Caesar, as there are far more books and references to him than Caesar.
Also, the Bible is known to have escaped by and incredible degree the 'Chinese whispers' syndrome that affects many historical texts. Does that mean you should automatically believe that it's literally God's word? No. But it is pretty extraordinary all the same. Almost like it has been preserved in some divine fashion?
Here is where we get more into belief:
We have no way of knowing how long Adam lived alone in the Garden of Eden. It must have been some time (the garden was a physical place so there was time. Matter, space and time are all linked according to the scientifically tested Theory of Relativity). He did name all of the types of animals. That must have taken a fair while. As for Lilith, I don’t believe her story. And I haven’t done much research into her, but she appears etymologically to have been a night spirit/demon/Succubus well before the 'first' woman.
Rod, I have the same problem. I just write in word and then cut and paste like you mentioned.
- If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs. - David Daye.
- The mouth of a happy man is filled with beer. -
- The mouth of a happy man is filled with beer. -
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