Nick you ok??

Anything that doesn't have to do with luthiery can be discussed here. Please be moderate.

Moderators: kiwigeo, Jeremy D

Post Reply
User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9490
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Nick you ok??

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:19 am

Nick are you ok?

I received emails from friends in Chch regarding a big quake...thought they were talking about the 6.6MM quake at Culverden yesterday. Turned on the news and realized they were talking about a bigger event...MM7.5.
Martin

seeaxe
Blackwood
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:20 pm
Location: Auckland NZ

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by seeaxe » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:54 pm

Hopefully Nick will chip in soon.

News says most damage in Culverden, Waiau and Kaikoura so a bit up the track from Nick and he is hopefully OK.
Would have been well and truly felt in CHCH, lots of damage in Wellington, trains out (while they check the lines) , schools out(while they check the buildings) , ferry terminals out link spans damaged I think. Broke a wharf in Wellington!
It didn't wake me up in Auckland but I was just talking to a mate up here who said the water slopped out of his pool - so it got as far as us.

I feel very sorry for the people down south, just when you think that things are settling down they get another one.
Richard

User avatar
Nick
Blackwood
Posts: 3646
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by Nick » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:13 pm

All good here thanks Martin, piss poor night's sleep but that's the worst of it. Was a biggy and lasted 80 seconds (felt longer!), yeah the original 6.6 was upgraded to a 7.5 ( they're thinkng it was two seperate faults that went off together). Kaikoura's completely isolated and all roads north are shut off by landslides, SH1 and SH71 up through the Lewis all suffered with some pretty meaty looking cracks in the road.
We were upstairs and now I know what the top of a bowl of jelly feels like when it's wobbled on a plate, was very similar sort of action.
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9490
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:16 pm

1479102182152.jpg
1479102182152.jpg (70.34 KiB) Viewed 3501 times
Martin

Max Taylor

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by Max Taylor » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:52 am

Good to hear your okay.

I was living right on top of the epicenter of the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake in northern California when it hit. It was rated at 7.1 and your was much higher rated so I can related to what it is like to ride one out. Definitely not my idea of fun.

Most people are unaware that each full point on the scale, i.e. 5, 6, 7, etc is logarithmic and each step represents a factor of 10. Hence a 7 represents ten time more energy release than a 6. Also, the final rating actually represents the “total energy released” during the event over the total time of the quake.

So a 7 point quake lasting 3 minutes typically does not do as much damage as a 7 pointer that lasts 15 seconds as the energy is released more gently and over a longer period. This in no way diminishes the “pucker factor” much but it can greatly reduce or increase the amount of damage done to buildings by land slippage, upheavals, etc.

During my event in 1989 (during game 1 of the Baseball World Series in San Francisco @ at 5:03pm) the initial jolt was a massive upthrust such that anyone standing had there legs buckled under them and ended up on the floor. Our entire area was raised 2 meters and shifted 5 meters north and all in 15 seconds. By the time the waves got to San Francisco (70 miles north) they were undulating and that dropped bridges, freeways, and sunk structures in San Francisco via liquefaction for buildings build on landfill reclaimed from the bay.

We had 2,000 aftershocks in the next 7 days and the next two days everyone sleep outside in tents so I know well, not only the initial jolts but the fear that everytime another occurred we all wondered if it was going to be another big one. We also had a 5.2 and a 5.4 within the next 20 minutes of the 7.1 and lots in the high 4’s so a scary time.

For those out there who have never been involved in an event such as this it is hard to fathom. For those that have it is unforgettable how helpless you can feel during an event. After shocks just go with the territory and you never know when they are coming or how big they may be. Many sleepless nights will follow as even the slightest of rumblings could very well be another big one. Overall it is much better when you live in a earthquake prone area to have lots of smaller one the relieve built up stresses. It’s when you go for decades without any that you really begin to worry that the next one will be big.

As for the preferred structure to be in in any earthquake I would take a Geodesic Dome anyday, and night. Over all I would take an Earthquake over Hurricanes, Typhoons, Cyclones and Tornados any day. Unless you live in unreinforced concrete block or stone buildings (these don’t bend well) most of todays structures make things much more survivable.

Glad your all safe down there.

—Max

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9490
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:08 am

Max Taylor wrote:
Over all I would take an Earthquake over Hurricanes, Typhoons, Cyclones and Tornados any day.
Not sure I'd agree with this........a primary seismic event arrives unannounced so you have no warning and no time to plan for the event. With all the other natural events you've listed you would have at least some warning that its going to happen.
Martin

Max Taylor

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by Max Taylor » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:44 am

kiwigeo wrote:
Max Taylor wrote:
Over all I would take an Earthquake over Hurricanes, Typhoons, Cyclones and Tornados any day.
Not sure I'd agree with this........a primary seismic event arrives unannounced so you have no warning and no time to plan for the event. With all the other natural events you've listed you would have at least some warning that its going to happen.
Can’t argue with your logic as far as warnings go but the end results of Hurricanes, Typhoons, Cyclones and Tornados are typically far more devastating and widespread. Especially Tornado’s as in what is known as “Tornado Alley” from Texas to Michigan. The weather service always issues warnings ahead of time to be on the lookout but when a Category 5 Tornado touches down and can leave a path of destruction a 1.5k wide and 160k long and typically leaves nothing above ground standing that is scary. It easily hurled car and trucks miles from their original location and people too if you get caught in it. You can go underground a survive it but when come up afterwards and see nothing left the shock is unbelievable.

At lease a Earth Quake leaves everything where it was although destroyed in most cases. I grew up in Southern California only miles from the famous “San Andreas Fault” and have lived the most part of my 70 years feeling quakes of magnitudes 7 many times. Sure, people die but only a fraction of those compared to Hurricanes, Typhoons, Cyclones and Tornados.

Please don’t get the idea that I am trivializing earthquakes in the least. I know what their like and have lived the adventure. I’m just pointing out that Nature can be a beast when it wants to and with earthquakes you typically don’t get more than a few seconds warning.

You can buy early warning earthquake warning detectors that detect the P-Wave but depending on how close or far you are from the epicenter they will only give you maybe 4-5 seconds or maybe up to a minutes warning to brace yourself and get out into the open where you will be safe 99.99% of the time. Definitely away from tall building where falling debris and glass can be deadly.

Also when you live in earthquake prone areas you arrange your home differently. You don’t set glass items on open high shelves. Large cabinets that can fall over your fasten to the wall studs from behind. Self locking kitchen cabinet are not a bad idea either. In the Loma Pieta 7.1 we had several crystal glass in a kitchen cabinet across the kitchen (4 meters) from the refrigerator somehow end up broken inside the refrigerator. Don’t ask me how that happened, it just did. Things can definitely move around during a quake.

It never ceases to amaze me that one of the most beautiful places on the planet, NZ, can have such a deadly beast lurking just beneath the surface. I can really feel for what these people are going through having been through it first hand. The denser the population the worse the effects. Tokyo comes to mind but typical Japanese farmers seem to come through unscathed most of the time.

—Max

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9490
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:53 pm

Max Taylor wrote:
You can buy early warning earthquake warning detectors that detect the P-Wave but depending on how close or far you are from the epicenter they will only give you maybe 4-5 seconds or maybe up to a minutes warning to brace yourself and get out into the open where you will be safe 99.99% of the time. Definitely away from tall building where falling debris and glass can be deadly.
A device to detect compressional first arrivals???? I'm sorry but that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. If you need a device to tell you an earthquake is happening then your senses must be severely impaired or you're clinically dead.

Cheers Martin (Geologist)
Martin

Max Taylor

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by Max Taylor » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:33 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
Max Taylor wrote:
You can buy early warning earthquake warning detectors that detect the P-Wave but depending on how close or far you are from the epicenter they will only give you maybe 4-5 seconds or maybe up to a minutes warning to brace yourself and get out into the open where you will be safe 99.99% of the time. Definitely away from tall building where falling debris and glass can be deadly.
A device to detect compressional first arrivals???? I'm sorry but that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. If you need a device to tell you an earthquake is happening then your senses must be severely impaired or you're clinically dead.

Cheers Martin (Geologist)
Martin,

Believe it or not such devices actually do exist. You don’t need one obviously but they do exist. I watched a one hour TV show based out of Oakland, California by seismologists demonstrating these devices and explaining how and on what principle they work. The two waves can be likened to that of being shot at from a long distance at night. The flash from the gun reaches you almost instantly while the bullet takes more time to reach you and the actual sound takes still longer yet. If you far enough away and see the muzzle flash you might just b able to drop to the ground before the bullet get to you. Same basic principle. The first wave is also not unlike seeing the flash from a nuclear explosion that arrives at your location before the actual destruction does. I won’t argue the point any further than that as I can not change the fact. Oddly enough I only live 90 miles from “Area 51” where all the nuclear testing was done in Nevada.

Sure they will not give you much of a heads up depending how far one may be from an epicenter but if it goes off you may have enough time to get into the open and away from buildings. These devices can in fact warn you that the destructive S-Waves are on the way. These are the ones that cause all the damage via shaking, etc.

Granted I am no authority on earthquakes but I have been directly impacted by at least 5 of magnitude 6+ and all their early warning signs were each different. Some start with light rumblings like that of a large truck rumbling past your house and get larger over the next 5 seconds or so till they reach their peak. The problem is that you never know in advance exactly when that peak will be reached. Others can hit with an immediate jolt such that you have absolutely no time to react at all. Those you learn tell you that the epicenter was extremely close to your location.

After the Loma Prieta quake in 1989 while listening to the radio broadcasts out of San Franscisco we would feel a big aftershock (maybe 4.8 or so) and it would be well over a minute before the radio announcers would say “we’re feeling another aftershock right now.” It was the same one we felt a minute earlier. It always took about a minute after we felt them that the radio announcers could feel them so 70+ miles away.

These are just my own personal experiences regarding earthquakes and having had first hand dealings with seismologists and a local monitoring station that turned out to be on the epicenter of the Loma Prieta quake that was set up by my brother-in-law who was also working with the “Star Lab” at Stanford University doing research for the US Navy on detecting earths magnetic anomaly variations of which that quake actually registered on their equipment and sent it totally off the scale. These readings actually started appearing some 5 hours before the quake actually hit and continued off and on until it hit. Ended up there was a definite link to their readings that lead up to the quake itself. They said there was a definite “Piezo Electric” effect being generated by massive compression forces beneath the earth that showed up on all of their monitors. Just the facts.

—Max

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9490
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:23 pm

Max Taylor wrote:
Martin,

Believe it or not such devices actually do exist. You don’t need one obviously but they do exist. I watched a one hour TV show based out of Oakland, California by seismologists demonstrating these devices and explaining how and on what principle they work. The two waves can be likened to that of being shot at from a long distance at night. The flash from the gun reaches you almost instantly while the bullet takes more time to reach you and the actual sound takes still longer yet. If you far enough away and see the muzzle flash you might just b able to drop to the ground before the bullet get to you. Same basic principle. The first wave is also not unlike seeing the flash from a nuclear explosion that arrives at your location before the actual destruction does. I won’t argue the point any further than that as I can not change the fact. Oddly enough I only live 90 miles from “Area 51” where all the nuclear testing was done in Nevada.

Sure they will not give you much of a heads up depending how far one may be from an epicenter but if it goes off you may have enough time to get into the open and away from buildings. These devices can in fact warn you that the destructive S-Waves are on the way. These are the ones that cause all the damage via shaking, etc.
Hi Max,

You're going to have to excuse my cynicism and skepticism. While I wasn't on the ground in Christchurch for the 2011 quake I was born in that city and have family and friends there some of whom were badly affected by the disaster. One doesn't have to be present at the scene of a disaster to be affected by it.....I was forced to quit my job for 6 months in 2011 to deal with the aftermath of the Chch quakes. I also got to witness some parties taking advantage of people's fear and misery by pedaling claims they could predict quakes by phase and position of the moon along with other assorted snake oil salespeople. I'm sure you witnessed/experienced the same things after the quakes you went through.

The delay between muzzle flash and arrival of the bullet over a long distance is an appropriate analogy....with an emphasis on the phrase "at distance". Accordingly any P wave warning device is only going to be of use when you are a long distance from the epicentre of a quake and it's for this reason that I question it's usefulness.
Martin

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 9490
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Re: Nick you ok??

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:43 pm

In case anyone's wondering...the cows finally got rescued.
480c3d82bb57c41289ddb5f73c787fe2061b38972c8c11708599981564bfb5f3.jpg
Martin

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests