19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

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jonwallace
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19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by jonwallace » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:36 pm

I'm just starting my first classical and am going to follow the Fleta plan in the book.

In most of the photos of this style of guitar the 19th fret is in line with the edge of the sound hole and is usually split. The fretboard is cut around the edge of the sound hole.

On the plan, the sound hole centre is 155 from the 12th fret which, according top my calculations, positions the 19th fret 5mm from the hole.
So the 19th is a full fret, but what can I do beyond that?
A split 20th fret is possible, but each side looks a bit short to me.

Is this something I just need to be creative with or is there a more definitive solution?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
Jon

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kiwigeo
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:00 pm

First rule of luthiery......have a plan
Second rule of luthiery..hardly anything goes to plan :)

Moving the soundhole a few mm shouldnt cause any problems....tweaking of soundhole patch (if any) and UTB and upper bout positions/dimensions may be necessary but again nothing complicated. Do up a full scale drawing of the body and neck to check how everything will lie.
Martin

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Trevor Gore
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by Trevor Gore » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:17 pm

Apparently, Fleta build guitars both with and without the 19th fret being split.

Convention says split the 19th. Logic says don't. The main reason not to, as I see it, is that if you want to increase the sound hole diameter for resonance tuning purposes and already have a split 19th fret, you end up with too little fret to play on. You're unlikely to want to increase the sound hole radius by more than ~2mm (4mm on the diameter), so if you leave yourself a bit more room, you can increase as much as you're likely to and not have an odd looking sound hole/fret and maintain a complete 19th fret.

Of course, it begs the question, why was the 19th fret ever split in the first place? Can anyone answer that? To me it looks like a screw-up that got accepted into the tradition! I've built guitars with split 19th, full 19th and full 20th. The full frets sound better, if you get up there to use them. Driven by logic, you'd go the full 20 frets, because that gets you to C6, likely more useful than finishing at B5. But I've never been much of a traditionalist...

jonwallace
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by jonwallace » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:16 pm

Martin,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, my initial thought was to alter the plan slightly, but I guess I was interested in how others had dealt with it.

Trevor,
You've confirmed what I suspected, that there is no one way to do this.
I think I had already decided that the 19th would be full because it is so far from the sound hole. I suppose I was more concerned about what happens after that. Do I cut the fretboard off square at the sound hole, or cut it around the sound hole with or without a 20th fret? Or overhang the sound hole like some of your other examples?
I think I'll quickly draw it out and do what looks best to me.

Thanks
Jon

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Steve.Toscano
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by Steve.Toscano » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:55 pm

If its any help. I just checked my fleta build. Full 19th spilt 20th. The 2x E strings hit the split 20th fret right in the middle.
650mm scale.
Built roughly close to the plan from the gore/gilet book.

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kiwigeo
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by kiwigeo » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:21 pm

jonwallace wrote:Do I cut the fretboard off square at the sound hole, or cut it around the sound hole with or without a 20th fret? Or overhang the sound hole like some of your other examples?
I think I'll quickly draw it out and do what looks best to me.

Thanks
Jon
If you want to keep with the look of the Fleta then fretboard end is best flush around the soundhole. If you want the best practical option then go Gore style with the end of the fretboard protruding into the soundhole.

Here's my current build....a falcate braced classical with bolt on/bolt down neck and treble side of fretboard end (including 20th fret) extending into the soundhole. I can just get my hand in through the soundhole but its a tight fit.
IMG_1590.jpg
Martin

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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by jonwallace » Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:01 pm

felix wrote:If its any help. I just checked my fleta build. Full 19th spilt 20th. The 2x E strings hit the split 20th fret right in the middle.
650mm scale.
Built roughly close to the plan from the gore/gilet book.
Yes, it is some help.
I'd wondered whether a split 20th fret might work, and you've confirmed it does.

Thanks
Jon

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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by jonwallace » Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:28 pm

kiwigeo wrote:
jonwallace wrote:Do I cut the fretboard off square at the sound hole, or cut it around the sound hole with or without a 20th fret? Or overhang the sound hole like some of your other examples?
I think I'll quickly draw it out and do what looks best to me.

Thanks
Jon
If you want to keep with the look of the Fleta then fretboard end is best flush around the soundhole. If you want the best practical option then go Gore style with the end of the fretboard protruding into the soundhole.

Here's my current build....a falcate braced classical with bolt on/bolt down neck and treble side of fretboard end (including 20th fret) extending into the soundhole. I can just get my hand in through the soundhole but its a tight fit.
Thanks - a photo always helps.

I think the traditional style (end flush around sound hole) will work but needs a split 20th fret.

The protruding fretboard with a 20th fret will also look fine.

I think I'll sketch out both schemes before deciding.

Thanks for taking the time.
Jon

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Trevor Gore
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by Trevor Gore » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:34 am

jonwallace wrote:I think the traditional style (end flush around sound hole) will work but needs a split 20th fret.
Not necessarily. Here's a treatment of a complete 19th fret:
Curly purfs.jpg
Curly purfs.jpg (103.37 KiB) Viewed 3979 times
Here's an overhanging 20th:
Seg neo rosette.jpg
Seg neo rosette.jpg (137.15 KiB) Viewed 3979 times
Here's a complete 20th on a tilt-neck:
20 frets.jpg
I've also cut the board end off square as per a steel string and I think I've also left the points on without the split fret, though I can't find a pic.

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kiwigeo
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:24 am

Jon,

If youre belting in a fret and its really close to the end of the fretboard you can reduce the risk of the fret splitting the end of the fretboard by filing off the tangs and gluing the fret in. I do this with my upper frets as a matter of course.
Martin

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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by jonwallace » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:34 pm

I think I was getting a bit hung up on doing it the 'correct/traditional' way, but I can see now from the photos that there are many options and they all look excellent.
Thanks
Jon

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Trevor Gore
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by Trevor Gore » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:25 pm

kiwigeo wrote:If youre belting in a fret and its really close to the end of the fretboard you can reduce the risk of the fret splitting the end of the fretboard by filing off the tangs and gluing the fret in.
I've found that the easiest way to deal with split frets is to leave the board long, fret the split fret as a complete fret (say, the 19th), then cut the end shape (the "s" curve or the circle) on the band saw. Of course, I'm dealing with a BOBO neck here, and pressing the frets in rather than hammering. I also fret the board before gluing the board on. A standard band saw blade will deal with normal and EVO frets just fine, but you will need a metal cutting blade for stainless steel frets.

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kiwigeo
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Re: 19th/20th fret on Fleta classical

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:40 pm

jonwallace wrote:I think I was getting a bit hung up on doing it the 'correct/traditional' way, but I can see now from the photos that there are many options and they all look excellent.
Thanks
Jon
Trevor's involved in this thread so forget about "correct" or "traditional" :mrgreen:
Martin

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