Any tips on gluing purfs to binding?

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:25 pm

I know Tim has bindings with purfling glued to bottom of same. I was just wondering if there are any magic jigs and methods to make the job a bit easier. Tim, if youre a bit coy about sharing any secrets then thats fine.

Cheers Martin

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:44 pm

I just use masking tape.

Easier if you tape both ends of the purfling to the binding first so that the binding has a bit of a bow in it, that helps pull the purfling tight against it (looks like an archery bow). Then I just run some titebond between the two, taping as I go. Then pull off the bits of tape at the ends so I can get some glue in there, and tape those back up too.

If they are highly figured bindings with some short grain, you need to be gentle when you take the tape off the next day. Don't ask me how I know.

This works, but there are probably better methods out there.

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:56 pm

I use Titebond III which I bought specifically for that job.

I then use the little plastic clamps that I use to clamps the linings on the the sides.

They don't seem to be that difficult to keep lined up.

Leave the bindings a bit thick and then run them through the thickness sander.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:43 pm

Thanks chaps.

Arnt · Post by **Arnt** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:37 pm

I think it easier to keep everything separate, just tape all the components up before bending, install them dry on the guitar, tape up, adjust any gaps or misaligned miters, then hit the whole thing lightly with CA.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:05 pm

Hi Arnt,

Do you do this even for the purfling at the bottom of the bindings? Ive seen one or two people glue in this trim when they glue in the binding but a majority of people seem to glue up the trim to the binding and then install same as one unit.

Arnt · Post by **Arnt** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:33 pm

Yes, I have done everything separate (including the side purflings) now for last few instruments. I seem to get better results this way; I especially like the ease with which I can adjust purflings and bindings independently until I'm satisfied. This is with the really thin BWB plastic / fiber purfs that I but from LMI, they will bend any direction without problems. With stiffer wooden purfs I imagine the sideways bends may cause some problems like buckling in the waist or a tight cutaway area. One method I tried was to start at the end graft, cut the purf miters and bindings until they were right, then tape that part, glue it down, then move around the instrument, taping and gluing a segment at the time. But what I like even better now is just to leave off all gluing until everything fits, then bring out the CA.

Dennis Leahy · Post by **Dennis Leahy** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:53 am

I have only made one set of bindings and only one guitar, but with that in mind, here's what I did to make bindings with attached purfling :

Starting with a piece of flatsawn wood sanded to about 3/16" thick (~5mm), I then glued 2 layers of veneer on one face, using Titebond III, sandwiched between MDF and clamped tightly.

When dry, the sandwich was jointed to get one clean edge, then flipped veneer side up. Banding strips were resawn on a bandsaw (I think it was about 7 strips per inch of material) slightly oversize, and then sanded down to .080" thick in a drum sander.

The Titebond III can handle the heat of a silicone bending blanket, so a pair of binding/purfling strips can be taped along one edge of the side being bent, to get the side and the binding bent in a single operation. (Remember to mirror the bindings, like veneer to veneer, to get the bends correct for front and back of the guitar.)

Dennis

Alain · Post by **Alain** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:20 am

On my latest I decided to glue on the top perf seperately from the rest. I was never really happy with the routed out channels while trying to glue up everything at once. I used HHG to glue in the purfling.

I did however glue up my purfling to the bindings for the rest of the guitar. I used LMI white which I found has a very decent heat tolerance. True, these are koa bindings and bend like butter. I just taped them up. Nothing fancy.

I love using HHG for gluing on bindings but I know Tony K uses CA too, as Arnt does and I want to give that a go. I've tried it on my last fingerboard bindings and it does work brilliantly...

Arnt · Post by **Arnt** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:52 pm

Alain, if you decide to use CA, remember to seal the binding rabbet with shellac. If not, the CA will soak into the end grain of the plates (especially the spruce) and you may end up with a weak joint and possible discoloration.

kiwigeo · Post by **kiwigeo** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:51 pm

Today I did a dry run with some of Tim's blackwood binding, some Stewmac BWB purfling and some of my Bluescreek Guitars lining clamps...works like a charm.

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:23 pm

Arnt wrote:Yes, I have done everything separate (including the side purflings) now for last few instruments. I seem to get better results this way; I especially like the ease with which I can adjust purflings and bindings independently until I'm satisfied. This is with the really thin BWB plastic / fiber purfs that I but from LMI, they will bend any direction without problems. With stiffer wooden purfs I imagine the sideways bends may cause some problems like buckling in the waist or a tight cutaway area. One method I tried was to start at the end graft, cut the purf miters and bindings until they were right, then tape that part, glue it down, then move around the instrument, taping and gluing a segment at the time. But what I like even better now is just to leave off all gluing until everything fits, then bring out the CA.

Many many thanks Arnt, i experienced that buckling in a couple of areas on no 4, i think i'll switch to your method next time, i too do the bindings and purflings separately, a bit more time but so much easier yes!

Right on bro!

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:02 am

I agree with Arnt. I keep everything separate too.

Mind you I am not a fan of using side purfs but I have used them in the past on 6-7 guitars.

There was another thread on the OLF recently in which a pro related in that in something like 30 years only one "real" money paying customer has ever asked him for side purfs..........

Perhaps consider that some of what we do is to support tradition and has no tonal benefits to your guitars, increases cost, takes time, and increases the level of risk too by adding complexity.

I'll shut up now.

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:07 am

I lied......

I forgot to add that many of you who do side purfs and mitered purfings use CA. I hate CA for guitar work even though I am in the vast minority here and prefer to use glues that I know will last 100 years or more. CA is only about 50 years old and no data exists for it's properties over longer periods of time.

I have extensive experience with CA in other uses including using it to stop bleeding on injured people. It's great stuff and has it's benefits I just am leary about using it on what I hope to be heirloom musical instruments.

Alain · Post by **Alain** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:57 am

Arnt wrote:Alain, if you decide to use CA, remember to seal the binding rabbet with shellac. If not, the CA will soak into the end grain of the plates (especially the spruce) and you may end up with a weak joint and possible discoloration.

For sure! I won't say why I know this... ho-hum...

BillyT · Post by **BillyT** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:21 am

Hesh1956 wrote:I am in the vast minority here and prefer to use glues that I know will last 100 years or more. CA is only about 50 years old and no data exists for it's properties over longer periods of time.

Huhm! What could go wrong? Barring some massive pulse of some zeno ray from outer space causing it to turn to cat crap, I can imagine any problems!

I avoid it because I have a little reaction to it, but I still use it! Do you have any other info!

(Has Serge's poster been talking to you about zeno rays again?)

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:48 am

Nope no data here and that is the problem for me.

For years I built radio controlled airplanes and later jets and helicopters. CA was the primary glue so I have used it hundreds of times or more.

My impression is that it's easy to be fooled by CA into thinking that you have a good joint. No not that joint I am speaking of the glue joint.....

Thin CA requires a perfect fit between the two parts or you just effectively sealed both sides of your gap......and still have a gap. Medium CA though more forgiving does act like a filler if there is not a wood to wood contact and we all know the structural value of filler - not.....

Much of my opinion has to do with my own objectives in guitar building. I never had any kids of my own so my guitars will be my legacy. With this said traditional glues that I see were used on guitars years ago are something that I am more comfortable with.

No disrespect intended to CA users either.

Years ago it was in all the papers that Madonna got mad at Sean Penn while he was sleeping and dripped CA on his testicles and glued them to his leg. The story got out because he had to go to the emergency room and have the glue dissolved from his leg and testicles..... Maybe this is why I don't like the stuff.....

Anyway my post was not intended to persuade anyone to nix CA and I can't support my feelings here. But CA users also can't show me a pre-war guitar that had CA used any where on it......

Bob Connor · Post by **Bob Connor** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:15 am

I have problems with the wider purfs (.060) if I don't attach them to the binding. The finer purflings don't seem to be as much of a problem.

You get around to the waist area and they just want to twist and won't sit in there properly.

I took a hybrid approach on the Blackwood guitar I'm doing at the mo.

I glued the side purfs to the binding first using Titebond III.

Then got the end graft, mitred purflings, bindings etc installed and used CA just in that area once everything was in place.

Then used Titebond for the rest of binding/purfling installation.

I hate using CA because of the mess it makes when it seeps under tape.

Another point about CA. We had to remove a top from a guitar that had the bindings glued with CA. When routing the bindings off, the bindings were shearing off up six inches in front of the router bit. So I'm not too sure about the impact strength of CA. (if there is such a term)

I have noticed Starbond is producing a product that is designated "flexible" superglue with 4 times the bonding strength of normal CA. This may be more suitable for bindings than standard CA.

It's not mentioned on their website but if you email and get the pricelist it's on there.

Bob

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:38 pm

I'm allergic to CA. So that rules that out.

Be careful Billy mate, a little reaction now can turn into a big reaction down the track.

Arnt · Post by **Arnt** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:04 am

Hesh don't worry, I'm not going to get all defensive and claim that CA glue is the greatest thing ever for guitar bindings and that you are a so-and-so for challenging it. Actually I have mixed emotions about using it too, I recently had a CA glued end graft pop loose when I was installing a strap jack plug... ooops! Very brittle glue line. I think I may try fish glue for bindings next time, it has a nice and long open time...

I would hate to have to give up CA for guitar repairs, fixtures and so on though. It has a million uses, my favorite is the yellow "gap filling" super T. Wear a respirator and safety glasses!

BillyT · Post by **BillyT** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:11 pm

Be careful Billy mate, a little reaction now can turn into a big reaction down the track.

Thanks Paul! I really seem to have a problem when I rarely use accelerant.

Hesh wrote: Madonna got mad at Sean Penn while he was sleeping and dripped CA on his testicles and glued them to his leg.

Wow! She did that to me too! Well, to be fair, I put Prep H on one of her feminine hygiene applicators... So I deserved it!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:50 am

On the last guitar I've glued up a sandwich of veneers to the Silky Oak that I used for purflings and then sliced off the strips on the bandsaw and drum sanded to final thickness. Bent them over an iron. These were the easiest ones I've ever installed.

I've bent them on the bending form as well, but it seems no matter how well I tape them up I get the pruflings wanting to come away or buckle in the waist area. The iron is just so more controllable and for me one of the more enjoyable parts of building.

I've also glued side purflings, bindings, and top purflings in seperatley, that is to say, side pruflings not attached to the bindings. It was a bit like trying to arm wrestle and octopus but they ended up looking really good.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:06 pm

Hi Folks,
Thought this may be of interest...
http://www.grellier.fr/shop-show.php?page=8&lang=en
Apologies if it's old news.
Regards,
Steve

Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:25 am

Don't know about anyone else, but I haven't seen that before. I like it. Going to had that to the jigs folder.

jayluthier · Post by **jayluthier** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:59 am

I realise this a really old post..but I haven't seen the following method posted yet ,, so here goes:

1. I first obtained a piece of UMHW (non-stick,slippery plastic material) in a 1' x 4" x 36" piece. I'm in the US so there may be a challenge, but...get the material. You can usually find it a plastics supply company. In the US, company called TAP plastics has outlets around the traps. I can't recall what the equivalent Australian place would be.

2. Then, with a thin kerf blade, rip two grooves lengthwise in the piece. The kerf should be around 0.080" wide and about .150" deep.
You then have two grooves approximately the thickness and a little over 1/2 the depth of a piece of .250" binding material.
3. Now lay a piece of purfling in the bottom of the groove.
4. Carefully coat one edge of the binding with Titebond or LMI white glue.
5. Lay the binding on top of the purfling and clamp the entire length of the binding in the groove with some flat cauls along the exposed edge.
6. Once dry, carefully remove the new purfling/binding lamination, clean up with a scraper, and then, if you want to refine the thickness of the binding, run it
through your thickness sander. (this step is not critical, but it is important to make sure that you have at least one side of the new binding smooth so it will glue up nice and tight in the binding rabbet.)

Took me more words to describe..but lacking a picture. hope you can visualise it. The groove handles purfling/binding alignment and makes the gluing up much easier.
cheers,
jay

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Any tips on gluing purfs to binding?

Any tips on gluing purfs to binding?

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