Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

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charangohabsburg
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Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by charangohabsburg » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:06 pm

or: Silk - and why it is not a great help when determining runout. And other silk related angles of view.


Some weeks ago I started a thread explaining how to determine runout in spruce tops (here). In that thread arose the question if pronounced silking could generally be regarded as a reliable indicator of little or no runout, as Rudolf Fuchs suggests in the English version of his homepage. The answer was (and is) no. Silk is not a useful runout indicator, an example with nice silk featuring heaps of runout is given in the same thread already mentioned (here).

I had promised to provide some numbers and drawings to explain the relationship between silk appearance and runout a bit further. I'm doing this here in a new thread because silk appearance in fact is a pretty useless indicator for lack of runout so I don't want to mix the two things too much. Silk is a good indicator for a near to perfect radially cut board or veneer. I'll come to this here too.

When talking of silk we see longitudinally sliced medullary rays. Each ray is a band of ray cells which are thin wood cells going from the center of the stem towards the bark, crossing the annular rings at a right angle (90° with really few deviation).

I made some drawing from photos in the book Identifiying Wood, R.Bruce Hoadley's , The Taunton Press 1990. The original magnification indicated by Hoadley is 75x but the drawings here in the forum appear about 2x bigger on the screen (an as these are drawings, with less detail than the photos in the book). It's white pine, not spruce. I start with white pine because Hoaldley's book provides some nice information about it (lots of sharp microscopy photograhps).

When looking from outside to the center of an upright stem ( = looking onto a tangentially cut surface) we see this:

Image
(magnification of the original photo in the book: 75x - this drawing appears bigger on the screen)

We can see the cross section of the ray cells (tiny, lined up circles) that form the rays in numbers of 3 to about 10, "squeezed" between the longitudinal wood fibers called tracheids. The thick, round cell (HR) is a horizontal resin channel. Resin channels in spruces and firs are much smaller than in pines, so we won't find those gorgeous resin channels in spruce.
Normally the ray cells form only one layer, we say the rays are uniseriate. Conifers mainly have uniseriate rays but also show occasionally biseriate, partially biseriate or even partially triseriate rays. We will never find so called multiseriate rays in conifers (some maples feature 4-5 cells thick rays, other maples up to more than 10-seriate rays). Here a picture with a partially biseriate and a partially triseriate ray (still Hoadley's white pine) :

Image
(magnification of the original photo in the book: 150x - this drawing appears bigger on the screen)

Here the horizontally running lines are the longitudinally sliced ray cells of a ray on a radially cut surface - that's what we see as "silk" :

Image
(magnification of the original photo in the book: 75x - this drawing appears bigger on the screen)

And this is the cross cut surface featuring a nice ray (invisible to the naked eye because it's only one cell thick (uniseriate) and a vertical resin channel. The big cells in the top of the picture are earlywood cells. Then there follow about 5 rows of latewood and the rest of the bottom cells are again earlywood without reaching the next (actually the former) latewood cells. With this you get an idea of the magnification:

Image
(magnification of the original photo in the book: 75x - this drawing appears bigger on the screen)

I arranged a 3 dimensional model for a better visualization of the orientation of these pictures.

R = radial surface
T = tangential surface
X = crosscut surface

That 3-D model is not to scale: if that log should serve for a guitar top then the green cube in the left part of the picture is way too big - it should have an edge length of considerably less than the width of an annual ring.

Image
(Click to enlarge)

*************************************
*************************************

Let's take a closer look on the average geometric proportions of the medullary rays. As we can see in some pictures above the space occupied by the cross section of the ray cells can be described by "lightly squeezed between the tracheids" resulting in being about twice as high than thick (in the upright stem - in the following drawings the stem "lies on the floor" ).

The cross section of a ray 8 cells wide:
Image

The "grid", an approximation of the ray's cross section shape:
Image

If a board, billet or veneer is cut exactly radially (green cutting line), all exposed (sliced) 8-cells rays are between 6 and 8 cells wide:
Image

But of course there are also plenty of two-, 3-, 4-, 5-, 6- and 7-cells wide rays... and some wider ones too. But for now let's only look at the 8-cells rays, a well represented number of cell-wideness in spruces.

If we have a runout ratio of 1:16 (which is still OK with A-grade spruce but will produce a pretty pronounced color/refraction difference between the top halves) things look like this:

Image

We easily can see that the maximum width will still be something over 6 cells wide - more than the minimum width with zero runout. But how much more? Let's do an approximate "calculation" and look at the tips of the ray cross section:

Image

Image

As we see, at a runout ratio of 1:16 each "tip" will be shortened by 13/16 of it's length. The whole width of the ray is 8 x 16/16 or 128/16. With the shortened "tips" it will be about 26/16 shorter. 26 divided by 128 makes 0.2031, or 20.31%, which is the amount by which the visible ray will be narrower on a guitar top with fairly poor runout properties. It still has 80% of it's maximum width at no runout! Barely visible I'd say.

Let's go a step or two further, things get easier without the "tips".

Runout ratio 1:12
Image

1:12 an interesting ratio because the rising angle of the grain is arctan (1/12) = 4.76°, or close to 5°. Let's see what this means when this angle is applied to the orientation of the growth rings (radial cut = vertical growth rings). If you visualize it, 5° off is not extremely much for a nearly-radial cut. But what happens to the silk with 5° off-radial cut? Right, the length of the silk streaks (on true radial cut up to several centimeters long) shrinks to 75% (6/8) of the ray width (something more than 1/10 millimeter). That's what I call "indicator"!
(Btw, according to the website of High Mountain Tonewoods 5° is the absolute maximum off-quarter angle Shane Neifer allows on his lowest grade spruce tops. Me and certainly many others of you have received amazingly silky tops that came in his popular low grade bundles)

Back to runout. Very poor runout ratio 1:8 still shows half of the actual ray width! (I have not yet spotted a piece of package grade spruce with poorer runout than 1:10)
Image

As you see, Mr. Fuchs is not wrong when he says that no runout renders nicer "silk", but he is wrong when believing that one could tell differences apart before runout gets unacceptable.

Here I have created a surface with a runout angle of 45° just to see what "silk" looks like at a runout ratio of 1:1
Image

The angle between the surface and grain direction is about 45° (to visualize I placed a straight strut along the grain) :
Image

Although the silk lines get really thin at runout ratio 1:1 it is still visible to the unaided eye (Mr. Fuchs' Theory proves to be true at this extreme) :
Image

We might think now: what about silk in end grain?
No way! The rays (one cell thin) will not be visible to the unaided eye.

But even a cheap 5 dollar hand lens (claimed magnification 60x) with adequate lighting shows more detail than I had imagined before jumping into this. For taking pictures I bought another toy (same link as before) which is not that bad when using the eyepiece, but taking nice photographs is a bit tricky, especially when not using transmitting light (when looking at solid pieces).

I used a mix of transmitting light plus two direct light sources for the following two pictures (showing the end grain of the same piece of Picea abies as before)
I made the transparent ruler by making a photo of a real ruler under the microscope and then dividing one millimeter in ten parts (in Photoshop).

Well, here comes silk in the end grain view (the horizontal lines - pretty thin! ) :
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

We also can distinguish very clearly the narrower latewood tracheids towards the center of the picture. Then, further on the right are the blurry but still recognizably bigger earlywood cells. I think the blurry part is sanding dust stuck in the bigger cells (yes, I had sanded the endgrain (to see it at all) and now I had chiseled off a slice for looking at it through the microscope) The diagonal lines (upper left to lower right) are chatter marks from the less than sharp chisel - not really sampling at the peak of state of the art...

Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)


*************************************
*************************************

However, the simple calculation and cell-count is not the whole story of silky look. Why, for example, Shane Neifer's Lutz Spruce has such a spectacular silk compared to other spruces like Swiss Alpine Spruce or Alaskan Sitka Spruce?

This is a picture of the radial surface of alpine spruce (Picea abies).
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

On the left we can see the dark brown latewood which is about 2/10 wide.
We also can distinguish the tracheids running parallel to to (and of course in) the latewood.
There are three rays present. The upper one is very narrow (two ray cells wide, something between 2/100 and 3/100 mm), the middle one which is 5 cells wide (ca. 1/10mm) and directly adjacent the lower one which is 11 cells wide which equals to a bit more than 2/10mm.

I desperately tried to make things decently visible and used two light sources, a blue one and a yellowish one. Also due to the shellac layer that is on (it's a splinter of the piece here) some lines appear twice: in yellow and in blue. The quality of the pictures is much poorer than what I see with the $5 hand lens!

Now let's look at Shane's crazy Lutz-Silk.

Normal view:
Image

Closeup (for better orientation you can use the speck at the left of the red letters as a reference point in the former picture):
Image

Between/at the right of the fine lines "A" we can see one ray
Between/at the right of the fine lines "B" we can distinguish 2 rays
I'll explain after the next picture what we are seeing between the fine lines labeled with "C"

The dark stripes are the places where no medullary rays are visible (!)

Under the microscope:
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

Even at a first sight it is evident that the Lutz rays are not wider than the rays in the alpine spruce sample. But there are much more rays visible, and we can see rays at different depths! I marked four rays, (1) being in the topmost cell layer, (2) one layer below, (3) two layers below and (4) three layers below the surface. This means that the Lutz spruce not only has plenty of rays but also more transparent tracheids than other spruces have. i don't know if this is a genetic property of Lutz spruce or if it is dependent on the ambient / growth conditions. Maybe both. I really don't know, I'm not an expert.

Here two (bad) pictures of the tangential surface of the same Lutz splinter. The section of the ray cells appear much too big because they seem to be a bit out of focus (I'll have to learn to prepare good microscopy samples or stop with this and concentrate on lutherie). Anyway I hope you can get an idea of that incredible effect of "ray clustering" (my term invention) :
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

And here just for the fun of looking at gorgeous silk, two pictures more:
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

Now I'll have to practice a bit on making nice microscopy samples and I hopefully will be able to provide also some decent tangential views of several spruce types.

Cheers,
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

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Mike Thomas
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it shows.

Post by Mike Thomas » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:53 pm

Markus, you have put a lot of thought and effort into doing this, and I, for one, really appreciate it. I haven't had the chance to fully absorb it yet, but that is something I am looking forward to, with pleasurable anticipation, for tonight.
Mike Thomas


"There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness is the true method"

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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it shows.

Post by kiwigeo » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:56 pm

Markus will be back later on once hes fired up the scanning electron miscroscope in his garage....it sits next to his large hadron collider :mrgreen:
Martin

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charangohabsburg
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it shows.

Post by charangohabsburg » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:46 pm

Mike Thomas wrote: [...] I haven't had the chance to fully absorb it yet, [...]
...which kind of comforts me. As you noticed I also haven't written it down in 5 minutes. :D

Can't help but thinking of some vacation in Italy back in my childhood, when "le nonne e le zíe" (the grandmothers and the aunts) spent the whole morning on making cannelloni for the 100 restaurant guests expected for dinner - and in the evening the entire cannelloni production of the morning disappeared in less than 5 minutes in the hungry stomachs! :lol:
kiwigeo wrote:Markus will be back later on once hes fired up the scanning electron miscroscope in his garage....
Sounds weirder than it is. There are people who have done this.


youtu.be/

Note the bamboo torch in the background. It seems that he was not really sure if it will work. :lol:

I have not (or not yet :mrgreen: ) planned to build a SEM, but my cheap microscope (not the $5 hand lens!) will find it's way back to eBay soon, it has done it's job plus made me want to have a better one. 8)
Markus

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It's only the others who suffer.

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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by Nick » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:49 am

I'm with Mike & thank you for the effort you've put into this post Markus, & I too will be going back over it to absorb it more fully at a later date, not sure the old noggin can absorb anymore 'new' information at the current time....feels like it's all full up in there (how much information can you fit into a pea?) & refusing any new data!
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.

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charangohabsburg
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by charangohabsburg » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:58 am

Nick wrote: [...] not sure the old noggin can absorb anymore 'new' information at the current time [...]
It seems that I have packed a lot more of "information" in the OP than actually necessary. Basically there are only 3 things I tried to show and explain:

1) The orientation of the medullary rays:

charangohabsburg wrote: [...]
When talking of silk we see longitudinally sliced medullary rays. Each ray is a band of ray cells which are thin wood cells going from the center of the stem towards the bark, [...]

When looking from outside to the center of an upright stem ( = looking onto a tangentially cut surface) we see this:
Image

[...]
I arranged a 3 dimensional model for a better visualization of the orientation of these pictures.

R = radial surface
T = tangential surface
X = crosscut surface

That 3-D model is not to scale: if that log should serve for a guitar top then the green cube in the left part of the picture is way too big - it should have an edge length of considerably less than the width of an annual ring.

Image
(Click to enlarge)
[...]
2) What is happening when runout cuts through the rays:
charangohabsburg wrote: [...]
Let's take a closer look on the average geometric proportions of the medullary rays.
[...]

If we have a runout ratio of 1:16 (which is still OK with A-grade spruce but will produce a pretty pronounced color/refraction difference between the top halves) things look like this:

Image

We easily can see that the maximum width will still be something over 6 cells wide - more than the minimum width with zero runout. [...]

3) Showing why there are spruces (or spruce specimens) that show an extremely bold silk - it is because wood cells (tracheids) are partially transparent and rays can still be seen even if not on the surface but up to 3 tracheid layers below it:

charangohabsburg wrote: [...]

Image

Between/at the right of the fine lines "A" we can see one ray
Between/at the right of the fine lines "B" we can distinguish 2 rays
I'll explain after the next picture what we are seeing between the fine lines labeled with "C"

The dark stripes are the places where no medullary rays are visible (!)

Under the microscope:
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

Even at a first sight it is evident that the Lutz rays are not wider than the rays in the alpine spruce sample. But there are much more rays visible, and we can see rays at different depths! I marked four rays, (1) being in the topmost cell layer, (2) one layer below, (3) two layers below and (4) three layers below the surface. This means that the Lutz spruce not only has plenty of rays but also more transparent tracheids than other spruces have. i don't know if this is a genetic property of Lutz spruce or if it is dependent on the ambient / growth conditions. Maybe both. I really don't know, I'm not an expert.

[...] the tangential surface of the same Lutz splinter. The section of the ray cells appear much too big because they seem to be a bit out of focus (I'll have to learn to prepare good microscopy samples or stop with this and concentrate on lutherie). Anyway I hope you can get an idea of that incredible effect of "ray clustering" (my term invention) :
[picture]
Image
(click on the picture to enlarge)

[...]
Maybe this summery (or shortcut) can help save time to absorb what I have posted. There's a bit of 3-d imagination necessary.
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

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Kim
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by Kim » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:01 pm

This pure forum gold now shifted into the tutorials vault for safe keeping. 8)

This post has obviously been a lot of work for you Markus and many a budding luthier shall be very grateful of your efforts when they come across this excellent information.

Thank you so much for taking the time to educate. You share a special talent of the few who not only fully understands that which they seek to explain to others, but know of the switches that will light the way to understanding for all.

In acknowledgement of your contributions toward understanding, I hereby award you, Markus Schmid, the official ANZLF 'Julius Sumner Miller Award' for 2011.


youtu.be/

Congratulations Markus, to be mentioned in the same sentence as JSM is accolade of which any Australian would be very proud. :cl :cl :cl

Cheers

Kim

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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by Clancy » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:17 pm

It's a bit early for a JSM award Kim!
First he has to get an boiled egg into a milk bottle :lol: :lol: :lol:
Craig
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charangohabsburg
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by charangohabsburg » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:54 am

Thanks everyone for all the kind words!
Kim wrote:This pure forum gold [...]

In acknowledgement of your contributions toward understanding, I hereby award you, Markus Schmid, the official ANZLF 'Julius Sumner Miller Award' for 2011.

[JSM-vid]
Congratulations Markus, to be mentioned in the same sentence as JSM is accolade of which any Australian would be very proud. :cl :cl :cl
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

...and thanks for the award. 8)
Clancy wrote:It's a bit early for a JSM award Kim!
First he has to get an boiled egg into a milk bottle :lol: :lol: :lol:
  1. How big have the egg and the bottle to be?
  2. Must the egg still be edible once in the bottle (if yes: why, if you can't eat it anyway with the bottle around it? )
Yes, I will fight for the award! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

I had not yet heard of JSM. He's an absolutely amazing guy and his program is certainly a block buster! 8)
It's really kind of an exaggeration that I get compared to him (although I can live with it :lol: ).
Markus

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It's only the others who suffer.

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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by Kamusur » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:28 am

Well it seems as though you have written the definitive Markus, a great work that will stand up to repeated readings :cl
Now on the other hand what do we do with all that expensive firewood we've been sold :toi

Steve

P.S JSM only liked his choc with a glass and a half of full cream milk but he must never have tried swiss Markus

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charangohabsburg
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by charangohabsburg » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:35 am

Kamusur wrote:Now on the other hand what do we do with all that expensive firewood we've been sold
No problem, just send it over here with confidence. We have quite cold winters in Switzerland so that in a few months I will be able to dispose it off without charging you. No more additional loss than the postage. If that is not an excellent offer! :mrgreen:

P.S. I heard that Nick only uses Brazilian Rosewood and Ziricote for his pizza oven, no spruce. So don't use spruce for your pizza oven, it's not good for that use.
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

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charangohabsburg
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Re: Silky spruce. What it is and why/when it does show.

Post by charangohabsburg » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:04 am

Mistake:
charangohabsburg wrote:P.S. I heard that Nick only uses Brazilian Rosewood and Ziricote for his pizza oven, [...]
That was Allen, not Nick. Sorry for that. I have no idea what Nick uses for his pizza oven if he has one, but certainly it's not spruce, right?
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

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