Spanish Cedar

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auscab
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Spanish Cedar

Post by auscab » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:18 am

Does any one know of any one supplying Spanish Cedar in Australia ?

Its for a special restoration job on a really nice little piece of furniture I found.
Ive been trying to figure out the wood for a few days and it turns out its most probably Havannah Cedar from Cuba .

Rob

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by ozwood » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:15 am

Tim spittle had Spanish cedar
Paul .

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by kiwigeo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:34 am

Spanish cedar CITES listed so getting hard to find.

Rob, I've got a little stash and can let you have a blank for cost. PM me to discuss.
Martin

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by demonx » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:38 am

If Martin doesn't have what you're looking for try contacting Jeremy or Curly, they have plenty of Macrocarpa, commonly called Spanish Cedar although it's not really.

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:34 am

Demonx, if by macrocarpa you mean Monterey Cypress, a softwood conifer, I can't see the similarity to Spanish cedar which is a hardwood, more akin to mahogany but softer and lighter.

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by demonx » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:51 pm

jeffhigh wrote:Demonx, if by macrocarpa you mean Monterey Cypress, a softwood conifer, I can't see the similarity to Spanish cedar which is a hardwood, more akin to mahogany but softer and lighter.
I did mention it's not the same, but I have heard people call it Spanish cedar.

I've learned to always question. For example, when a customer asks for a Ebony neck, they usually want an Ebony fingerboard, not an ebony neck.

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:17 pm

Wrong colour, wrong texture and grain, you'd be better off choosing some meranti

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by auscab » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:52 pm

Thanks for the replies.

I rang an old timber supplier this morning and to my surprise he may have the sort of board size I need in that species . He's off checking .
If it doesn't work out I may come back to checking what You have Martin and ask Tim as well .

I don't know if neck blank size will do though . I sort of hope to get1.5 to 2 meters of 150 x 19 for some feet replacements and mouldings. If neck blank size is the only choice though I will probably have to go with that for some of the other repairs needed and maybe a similar cedar for feet.

Thanks Again

Rob

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by auscab » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:12 pm

Thanks Allen . Jeff is right on that , Ive worked my way through about 15 to 20 cubic meters of Macrocarpa . Golden Macrocarpa was what I had , same thing possibly.
Grown as windbreaks around farms . A clear piece looks sort of similar to NZ Kauri Pine

What I'm after is a relation of Mahogany like Aussie Red Cedar supposed to be .
It looks similar to Aussie Red Cedar but is paler and lighter as well I think, the Medullary Rays are more pronounced as well . It was used in a lot of 18th to 19c English furniture for Carcase sides and drawer sides and bottoms . sometimes like what i have , the whole piece was made from it as the show timber and the secondary timbers in mine are pine .

Rob

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by ozwood » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:01 pm

I reckon that there has been some confusion between Spanish cypress, which does look, smell very similar to Macrocarpa ,

And Spanish Cedar that does look and smell very similar to Australian red cedar as well as Toona Ciliata ??

Am I correct ?

But I'm with Jeff, drawing a line between Spanish cedar and Macrocarpa is a long bow indeed, If you want to see them side by side checkout my Flamenco, Macro B&S Spanish cedar neck.

Cheers,
Paul .

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by jeffhigh » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:21 pm

And Spanish Cedar is not even grown in Spain, but comes from the Spanish colonized Americas

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by curly » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:01 pm

Early days juvenile Aus red cedars were cut as a replacement for Spanish cedar , it'd take a finer eye than mine to spot the differences( before the Aus cedar has coloured up , maybe max 400 dia ) . As a tree they are also remarkably similar looking . I haven't looked into it but expect genetics would confirm a recent common ancestry . Craig perring from cedar works in Grafton would be my best recommendation for sourcing .
The confusion with macrocarpa and Spanish cedar is more likely just crossed wires with Spanish ( Mediterranean ) cypress . Cypressus macrocarpa and cypressus sempivirens ( not in conical cultivar form ) are really only differentiated by a blunter leaf tip in macro . And the timber smells different .
By the way Rob if you still want some plane tree bindings I've got heaps hanging around . No cost . Only proviso is you have to come visit . That way I can pick your extensive knowledge of old cast machines !
Pete

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by charangohabsburg » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:24 pm

demonx wrote:
jeffhigh wrote:Demonx, if by macrocarpa you mean Monterey Cypress, a softwood conifer, I can't see the similarity to Spanish cedar which is a hardwood, more akin to mahogany but softer and lighter.
I did mention it's not the same, but I have heard people call it Spanish cedar.
Well,you said "commonly". Very upsetting. :lol:
demonx wrote:[...] Macrocarpa, commonly called Spanish Cedar although it's not really.
No, of course not upsetting, but wrong.

Source of confusion could also be macrocarpa vs. macrophylla: Swietenia macrophylla is mahogany which smells different than any cedar (the smell is the only thing various cedars have in common) but looks and works quite similar. Wood names can be confusing.
Markus

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It's only the others who suffer.

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by auscab » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:19 am

I did get onto a source, but it fell through .
The dealer who knew of a guy, who had some and would normally sell to him, said he refused when he found out it was CITES listed. Fair enough !

So I posted a request on the ubeaut forum, got a reply that Trend timbers in NSW had some , rang them and had pictures sent . It looks good . Mexican grown.

Hi Pete, I would love to visit, see what you’re up to , grab some bindings, and always love a chat about old cast iron as well . I’ve been getting into a bit of Vintage Wadkin , stuff between the 1930s and 1950s
Where are you, still up Daylesford way ?

I have a friend who bought some of your Huon that was a pallet load on eBay , he bought over a piece for me to machine for him , said it was old growth stuff . I just thought all Huon was old growth stuff??
Then I started trying to see the growth rings on a quartered side, I couldn't see them ?
I grab the magnifying glasses that fit on my head, The stuff had three growth rings to the mm! Fruit!!
We were amazed at it.
Does it get that fine because one year’s worth of sun and nutrients has to add a layer to a very large diameter trunk, so its spread very thin per year?
I got into a bit of a discussion over it with another friend, and that was my guess/theory on it,

Here is what I’m fixing, a very rare thing to come across at all let alone on Aussie eBay.
I was scrolling through pages of rubbish and this pops up!!
It’s a Kneehole desk, used as dressing tables or desks. They were made between roughly 1680 and 1780.
This one is probably between 1740 to 60 and is Havana Cedar,( spelled Havannah I think, in my book on the wood) . and that's pretty unusual I think . The best ones were Walnut or Mahogany. Made in England.
Its missing most of its feet and bottom moulds and some cock bead around drawers.But I have enough to remake exactly what was there, luckily, just most of one foot remains.
The amazing thing is its still got its first wax polish job on it, its original finish, and most of its original plain plate handles.

Apologies, for putting furniture in amongst the build section of the forum.
I know it sometimes gets put on but its usually with John Putting a bloody saw through it :D .

Ill probably do a step by step Restoration of this of this on a blog I’ve had set up but haven't done much with yet.
http://robertbrown.com.au/wordpress/
If any one is interested in seeing how it turns out.

Rob
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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by charangohabsburg » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:13 am

auscab wrote: This one is probably between 1740 to 60 and is Havana Cedar,( spelled Havannah I think, in my book on the wood)

I never heard or read of a wood called similarly, but if the name means to relate to the cuban capital it might be spelled "Habana" (Spanish) or "Havana" (English).
auscab wrote:Apologies, for putting furniture in amongst the build section of the forum.
Just be careful if our Woodrat reads this! :lol:
Markus

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auscab
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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by auscab » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:19 pm

curly wrote:Early days juvenile Aus red cedars were cut as a replacement for Spanish cedar , it'd take a finer eye than mine to spot the differences( before the Aus cedar has coloured up , maybe max 400 dia ) . As a tree they are also remarkably similar looking . I haven't looked into it but expect genetics would confirm a recent common ancestry . Craig perring from cedar works in Grafton would be my best recommendation for sourcing .
If all looked identical Pete , the smell would be the give away . I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new .
I love the smell or our Aussie stuff but what I've smelt of the Spanish stuff , its very different .
Ive bought cigars with a veneer of it wrapped around it .

After talking to some timber guys up north Im getting suspicious!! The timber industry is famous for telling you one thing and selling you another another. Ive seen it plenty of times .
I was told there are plantations of Spanish cedar up north, and that the leaf tip moth ( not sure of the right name ) doesn't affect it like our native stuff ? is this true I wonder?

I'm being told its available at 15000 a M2 + postage . I would pay the price if I had to but would be furious if the right smell wasn't there ! Ive got plenty of pale Aussie red already sitting in my racks .
The solution is to buy some samples I suppose .

Rob

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by auscab » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:32 pm

charangohabsburg wrote:
auscab wrote: This one is probably between 1740 to 60 and is Havana Cedar,( spelled Havannah I think, in my book on the wood)
charangohabsburg wrote:I never heard or read of a wood called similarly, but if the name means to relate to the cuban capital it might be spelled "Habana" (Spanish) or "Havana" (English).


Just checked , Listed as Havannah in this book from 1853 , just how they spelled it then ?
Cedrela Odorata, Says its a native of North America and the West India Islands . it also says there have been many instances of single trunks of trees of this wood being hollowed out into canoes about 40 feet long , by 6 foot broad.

Rob

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Re: Spanish Cedar

Post by charangohabsburg » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:58 pm

auscab wrote:Just checked , Listed as Havannah in this book from 1853 , just how they spelled it then ?
That would be my first guess too. For example, today's German spelling of this city's name is "Havanna" (without trailing "h").
auscab wrote:Cedrela Odorata, Says its a native of North America and the West India Islands . it also says there have been many instances of single trunks of trees of this wood being hollowed out into canoes about 40 feet long , by 6 foot broad.
They forgot to mention its use for cigar boxes ;)
Markus

To be stupid is like to be dead. Oneself will not be aware of it.
It's only the others who suffer.

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