EUROPEANS WARNED OF THE "DANGERS OF CREATIONISM"

[Kim]

The problem I have with all this kind of stuff is that it demonstrates how you earthlings are sooo completely full of your own self importance, that you cannot even perceive the possibility that life as you know it may not be the only kind of life in the universe.

Why even upon your very own planet there have been found many life forms which do not need oxygen to survive. In fact some of these life forms live so deep at the floor of the ocean that they are removed entirely from the photosynthetic food chain and exist entirely upon a cocktail of gases which are excreted from the earth's core that would be so toxic to air or oxygen breathing life forms, that just one small wiff would kill instantly. You should read here http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec102000/1520.pdf for enlightenment.

Another example of how life can exist without oxygen can be seen upon the planet Hamilton Senior High School, a celestial body upon which I spent my own adolescence. Upon this planet, life forms respire only upon thick smoke emitted from PVC pipes partially filled with liquid coolant and gain nourishment only from mind altering chemicals substances.

So you see, you are not alone earthlings, and the message to you from the rest of the universe is, "GET OVER YOURSELF AND GET A LIFE"

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Serge. Miller's experiment wasnt about creating life. It was about synthesising organic compounds such as amino acids that are one of the basic building blocks of living organisms.

Cheers Brother Martin

[kiwigeo]

The problem I have with all this kind of stuff is that it demonstrates how you earthlings are sooo completely full of your own self importance, that you cannot even perceive the possibility that life as you know it may not be the only kind of life in the universe.

Well if there is life on other planets then they sure must be alot more intelligent than we are....thats why they havent bothered coming to visit us here on earth.

[Serge]

Serge. Miller's experiment wasnt about creating life. It was about synthesising organic compounds such as amino acids that are one of the basic building blocks of living organisms.

Cheers Brother Martin

Hi brother Martin,

You’re right bro, surely not creating conscious observers as we are but nonetheless, that experiment was made to simulate an environment that could explain how life(living organisms) evolved from chemical compounds, millions or billions of years ago to get to what we see today, right?

This theory that life evolved from non-living chemicals as building blocks for the obtention of living organisms(chemicals + time =Life) is called “Spontaneous Generation â€

[Serge]

The problem I have with all this kind of stuff is that it demonstrates how you earthlings are sooo completely full of your own self importance, that you cannot even perceive the possibility that life as you know it may not be the only kind of life in the universe.

Well if there is life on other planets then they sure must be alot more intelligent than we are....thats why they havent bothered coming to visit us here on earth.

What? there are no UFO'S in that universe? Hesh, store ya poster!

Check this out guys!

http://www.guba.com/watch/2000939487

[kiwigeo]

Hi Serge,

At the time of Miller and Urey's experiment the assumptions he made were reasonable considering the information that was available to him at the time and the then current thinking on the subject. He reasonably assumed that oxygen wasnt in abundance in the primordial atmosphere....it was thought to have been largely produced by conversion of CO2 by photosynthesising organisms.

Miller and Urey's work happened nearly half a century ago and its old science....its been superceded by a ton of more recent work. One example is the work of Toon and associates whose studies indicate that the earths primordial atmosphere could have contained up to 40% hydrogen. Such a high concentration of hydrogen implies a more favourable climate for the production of pre-biotic organic compounds like amino acids, and ultimately, life.

As usual you wont find any reference to Toon's work in the Creationist literature.


Cheers Martin

[Rod True]

And 15 mins later, the better side of judgement has kicked in and I've deleted my post.

[kiwigeo]

Rod,

The time is better spent building guitars. Im spending too much time on this debate while a 12 string waits out in the shop to have its back glued on.

I must say though Serge is the first Creationist Ive talked with who 1. has manners and 2. is able to listen to others input on the subject.

Cheers Martin

[Serge]

Rod,

The time is better spent building guitars. Im spending too much time on this debate while a 12 string waits out in the shop to have its back glued on.

I must say though Serge is the first Creationist Ive talked with who 1. has manners and 2. is able to listen to others input on the subject.

Cheers Martin

Thank you very much brother Martin and i return the compliment to you as well, you're a good man and you know that i will always do my best to give the softest or kindest answer to everyone. I had to pray tonight before answering this post and i hope you understand that i did not mean to attack people or individuals who believe in evolution, i did attack the belief system though. I do believe with all of my heart that people who believe in that theory are very brilliant and intelligent people that i respect even though my views on life and reality are diametricly opposed to that theory due to the spiritual aspects of life and the Living God that i worship. But i'm not here to judge nor condemn people, it is not my job as a christian to do that, i am called to love people even if they have differing views than mine.

Many who know me would tell you that i have been praying for all my friends on the OLF and i do the same now for the ANZLF bros and sisters.

My pride led us all into this debate and hopefully, Dennis can still forgive me that and i too, wish to end this debate here, we could only end up hurting ourselves. If i have to proclaim the Name of Jesus Christ, it will be in another thread.

I am not perfect but Jesus living in me is and i pray he forgives me that pride too.

Interesting thread though huh?

Thanks

Your bro Serge

[Rod True]

Hey Serge, we love you man. Your a good man with a good heart.

You love people and just want the best for everyone.

I agree, let this thread die now.

It's been very cool to see such a debate with such civility. Right on Guys.

Your all gentlemen in my books (And Lillian and Sam or of the more enlightened sex so they are better than all us men to begin with)

[Dennis Leahy]

...My pride led us all into this debate and hopefully, Dennis can still forgive me ...
Your bro Serge

Hey Serge,

Take a big deep breath, and when you let it out, let it come out in a surge of laughter. You have done me no harm, and are in no need of my forgiveness. If you ask my opinion, I'd say you may want to lighten up a little bit, and focus a bit more energy on lutherie ideas at these luthier forums, because it is what draws us all together. I think it would be great to share more of this shared passion, and a little less time on divisive issues.

There is a very fine fingerstyle guitarist, Jim Earp, who put out 2 brilliant CD's of inspired and beautiful solo acoustic guitar music that he composed. (Some of which was played on the one and only guitar he built at Bozo Podunanvac's School of Lutherie.) After those brilliant CDs, his next offering was a CD full of cover tunes - Christian hymns. I had corresponded with Jim after I purchased (multiple copies of) both of his CDs of his own music, and when he wrote to me excited about his 3rd CD, the Christian music, I bought a copy from him. He asked me to let him know what I thought of it. I told him the truth. The CD full of Christian songs was played very well, but not one song came close to the passion and emotional content and joy in his own compositions. I knew Jim was/is a devout and passionate Christian, because he went overboard with proselytizing, never missing a chance to declare his love for Jesus, even including a fish symbol and a chapter:verse notation with each autograph. So, using words I thought would deliver my message, I told Jim that his God-given gift shone brightly in his first 2 CDs, and that I hoped that he would continue to share that gift of communication with God evident in his original compositions.

Maybe the wisest holy men know how to draw people to them, so that they can share their gift. Maybe our example, they way we live our lives and the way we treat other humans and other living things, can serve as a more powerful attractant than evangelizing and proselytizing.

So, what do you think of extra-wide saddles? Do you tuck your braces under the linings? I have read that modern guitars are only 5% efficient! Yikes! What do you think we can do to increase the efficiency of drawing more of that vibrational energy from the string into the box? Whose adjustable neck joint do you like best, and why? What do you think of the aesthetics of 3-piece backs? ... .... ...

Dennis

[Serge]

Dear Dennis,

I will admit that a debate such as this one can be an uncomfortable place for anyone to be stuck in and i must applaud the civility that you and others and i have shown. At least, now you know that i have nothing against you personaly,

By withdrawing of such a debate, i am not saying that i will not talk about the Lord since this section is one of the reasons why i willingly joined the ANZLF and was excited about meeting and posting with old friends once again by the same way.

I am not the kind of Christian that you might think i am, there are many reasons why i will stand firm in Christ and proselytizing isn't one of them. I don't belong to any denominational church anymore, what i'm living is "Biblical" more than religious. I am not the kind of believer that will say that you have to join this church or this one, this is not important to me. In time, you will understand why i'm doing all of this.

Believe me bro, you will hear about my views on guitars soon but it will be in the proper section, in the meantime, i have to go clean up that shop so that i can resume building!

Hey, bro, got a link to hear that Jim Earp guy? Sounds interesting!

[Dennis Leahy]

... i am not saying that i will not talk about the Lord since this section is one of the reasons why i willingly joined the ANZLF and was excited about meeting and posting with old friends once again...

Hi Serge,

I'm not suggesting that you should stop mentioning your religious beliefs, merely making a gentle suggestion that if you whisper people may lean close to hear what you have to say, and if you shout they may run away. I'm glad the ANZLF provides a spot to blow off steam, tell a joke, point to something serious or silly, be foul-mouthed or genteel, and even to dare to allow the mention of political and religious views. You know most forums disallow political and religious stuff because it is divisive, so divisive in fact that those two general topics are the root cause of pretty much every war in history. I'm also glad that it is a separate subforum, and that there are specific areas to talk about lutherie and tonewoods, which are the areas where all of us come together in a common passion and pursuit.

Hey, Jesus was a woodworker. I'll bet his hand-cut dovetails were divine! If he would have had time to build instruments, do you think he would have tucked his braces, or let the perimeter loose? I'll bet he would have used Cedar of Lebanon for soundboards and would have said Adi is overrated. And, I'll bet he and Paul and John would have gotten a belly laugh talking about Shittum wood.

If I ever get a chance to meet Jesus, I'll cook him the best vegetarian meal he's ever had, sit and talk about how insane most humans are and how wonderful it is that some humans exhibit compassion, I'll try to get him to laugh, and I'll get out my guitar and play a couple of tunes for him. Why food, conversation, laughter, and song? Well, that's all the best of what I have to share.

Hey, bro, got a link to hear that Jim Earp guy? Sounds interesting!

Here's a link: Jim Earp at Guitar Nine

Take care,

Dennis

[Hesh1956]

It's been very cool to see such a debate with such civility. Right on Guys.

Your all gentlemen in my books (And Lillian and Sam or of the more enlightened sex so they are better than all us men to begin with)

Right-on Rod! I have been watching this thread for a while now and it's amazing to me that everyone remained respectful to each other and mindful that we are friends.

Let me please add that this thread was "created" in the best of faith and "evolved" as a civilized discussion of an issue that many are very passionate about.

I am so very proud to know you folks!

[Serge]

Thanks for the link Dennis, heavenly sounds!

[joel]

G'day all,

I've followed this thread for a while, and found it to be unusually polite and civil (as has already been mentioned. Well done!), while being quite vigorously debated. These discussions generally turn into mud-slinging matches, which is why I stay out of them. But, the extremely open and friendly way about which you blokes have had your say has encouraged me to add my 2 cents worth.

I'm a creationist. A literal-interpretation-of-Genesis creationist. Yes, that means I believe that the Earth is only around 6000 years old, that Noah was about 600 years old when the flood came, and all the rest. (NOT Theistic evolution, which is the theory that God used evolution over millions of years). How did I come to believe this? I read alot of books and magazines, both for evolution and for creation, and applied two of the most basic of scientific tools. Occam's Razor, and Bacon's Scientific Method. Both of which I personally found to be largely absent from the evolutionary theory.

Now, I can't PROVE creation happened the way I believe it did. And I'm happy to admit that. Nobody can SCIENTIFICALLY prove creation, but we have a good working theory of our origins based on the assumption that God exists and that he created all life as described in the bible.

Similarly, nobody can SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE evolution. And evolutionists think that they have a good working theory, based on the assumption that God doesn’t exist, so he couldn’t have created us, and we therefore arose by random chance in a universe created by accident.

We have yet to develop the technology that would conclusively answer the question of our origins, a time machine. Evolutionists dismiss creationist’s ideas as ‘religion’ and creationists dismiss evolutionist’s claims as bad science or some sort of anti-god conspiracy. Both camps are wrong. The sooner that both camps admit that they’re position is unprovable, we’ll never be able to have a rational, science-based discussion about our origins.

Which brings me to my point. As both theories - and all other theories of our origins – (including the one about aliens ‘seeding’ the Earth with DNA and starting life) are equally unprovable, both have equal scientific validity.

For example: A creationist geologist and an evolutionary geologist will be able to tell you exactly what a rock is composed of. Of course they can, it’s hard physical science. Where they’ll diverge is in explaining the origin of the rock. The evolutionary geologist will tell you that it took millions of years to form, whereas the creationist geologist will say that it took a much shorter length of time. (Don’t start on about radiometric dating, do some research and you’ll see that it’s not all it’s cracked up to be). Neither geologist has a time machine, so one can’t go back to *prove* the other wrong.

So, as both theories have equal scientific validity, they should be taught equally and students and researchers left to decide on their own and try to prove which theory is the correct one once and for all. This would be SCIENTIFIC METHOD at work! Our current scientific establishment is not currently in the practice of science in this area, but in the business of suppressing any competition to the evolutionary theory. Is the theory of evolution so weak that it cannot stand some honest scientific competition? Evolutionists will say “Of course not!â€

[kiwigeo]

G'day all,

I've followed this thread for a while, and found it to be unusually polite and civil

Unusually polite and civil by nature. That about sums up The Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum.

Makes me wonder why Bob has entrusted me as a moderator on this fine forum.

[Hesh1956]

I just received a personal message on the OLF where someone called me an asshole. Can you believe that - me an asshole..........

So I am now wondering if I evolved into an asshole or if I was created to be an asshole.

Thoughts please?

[Alain]

Hesh, I'd say both...

[Serge]

Thank you Joel, loved the fairness and respect in which you wrote your post, and i agree 100% on the fact that the creation theory has it's weaknesses just as any other theory on the origins. And will agree on another aspect, God is big enough and doesn't require that we defend Him.

Man, my jaw dropped to the keyboard reading your post, i wish i could have been that consequent in my own posts but i'm guessing that you must have participated in many of such debates before? This one was my very first debate on a forum.

I started this thread having fairness and justice in mind and to be true, i had God in mind and my friends as well, not a debate. But it was the way it turned out to be and i think there is a higher reason as to why. Thank Goodness, it went rather well. Not only that, as Rod so well said, i care about others, i care about my ANZLF friends here and at the OLF and always will. I would never want to hurt anyone's feelings, i just want to share what i know is true even if we seem to be living in a relativistic time.

I'm sure that my friends will understand that i'm not doing this for purely religious purposes, what i have in mind is not something that you will find out from a human source but rather a revelation from above. I'm also tempted to say more as to the motivations that i have for doing all of this but what i would really like would be for my friends to ask me why i have this assurance, this certainty in me. It is not because my name is Serge nor by fanatism that i want to share what happened to me this year in my own home but rather because it is there for all of you that i care so much about. It was there all along for me also, it just took 42 years for a veil to be lifted off of my eyes.

Martin, you're doin' a fine job bro, keep it up!

Hesh, tell this guy that a clean person like you never keeps something dirty inside hmmmmmkay?!

[Hesh1956]

Thanks Al you had me roaring with laughter.

And thanks Serge I love ya bro.

Sincerely,

The Asshole

[Bob Connor]

In Australia you'd be an arsehole Hesh - not an asshole.

In fact, depending on the context in which you use the word it could be considered a complement down here.

I don't subscribe to either the creationist or evolutionist theories of arseholes.

It's just like luthiery. Years of dedication, study, practice and self sacrifice will surely develop any art form to it's pinnacle.

Bob

[Rod True]

Come on Bob, let's not talk about Hesh's pinnacle.

Hesh, you weren't' created an arsehole or an asshole. Believe it or not, you didn't evolve into one either. You studied hard (without knowing it) you learned at the school of hard knocks and eventually received your "BA" in assholism. From there you flirted with other equally self indulgent character forms like selfish bastard, arrogant SOB and you nearly went with knob-jockey but quickly realized you'd be a much better arsehole than a dickhead. So you moved quickly, getting your master's in assholism and finally your doctorate and surprise of surprises, they nominated you in 2004 for the Nobel peace price for your dissertation on "Admitting your an asshole renders one the ultimate asshole" but The Nobel Foundation shook the shock from their minds and awarded it to some woman in Kenya, Africa for her contribution to sustainable development, democracy and peace.

No Hesh my friend. You were neither created an asshole or evolved into an asshole.

You've work incredibly hard to be the asshole that we all have come to love.

edited because I was being an asshole

Sorry, that's Dr. Asshole

[Serge]

i have my theory on Hesh's reality!

I think that our dear pal spends too much time with an alien who's only in his shop for the beer, i can attest that it is true, i was becoming more and more an As***le myself but saw that Hesh was being too neat in that bathroom shop and too nice to people and was reproducing the same pattern of cleanliness(which some say is next to holiness BTW ! ) in his new shop, i thought it would serve my mental abilities to get rid of the thirsty alien and send it to him to drive him mad annnnnd it looks like it paid off, my shop is dirty as usual, his shop is still clean to the point where you can eat from the floor, a real arse*ole, a disgrace....and i'm proud he's my bro! :bh

I did write that sober ya know?

[Kim]

In Australia you'd be an arsehole Hesh - not an asshole.

Bob

Yeah, the arsehole sold my nut file to Tony Karol!

Just kidding Heshter, I got the burnisher today, it is as good as a brand new one, thanks mate.

Cheers

Kim